My opinion on "hearing yourself on stage"

[vicenzajay]

Originally Posted by Bruce Lindfield

I agree with this - it's about TIMING folks!!

So if you want to sound sloppy and untogether... well hey your crowd might be drunk and not notice....

But if you want your band to be TIGHT and together - then you need to hear how you are fitting in rhythmically with everyone else!

If you're talking about Funky or Latin feels - then being tight is the be all and end all - and without good monitoring - forget it!!

I completely agree with keeping overall band volume down on stage....but...if you and the drummer cannot hear the bass in phase and in sync (which would not happen if you're trying to play from reflected FOH sound), then you didn't groove and your "pocket" was definitely not tight.

Jay

[sleepy_monkey]

I guess if I didn't want to hear myself, then I wouldn't have spent so much money on my equipment.
I like to FEEL the music, not just hear it. If I can't feel the warmth from my bass then my playing probably shows that I can't feel it...and it probably doesn't sound as warm to the crowd.
To me being surrounded by my bass is comforting...which is why I am a bass player and not a guitarist.

[metron]

I somewhat agree with the OPs idea but I cant say that performance is enhanced or even as good as it could be without being able to hear yourself. I have my parts down for my bands songs pretty well and could play along with them ok without amplifying myself at all but I guarantee my groove will suffer.

I think good players should be able to get by without perfect stage sound but IMO it is pretty ridiculous to think its preferrable in any way to not have it.

[dWilshireCourt]

This is a good point, as I have friends who just won't turn down. However, bass is an instrument that already goes unnoticed by many (younger crowds of course), and without the right amount of stage volume, you might has well stand there unplugged. I like to hear myself, simply because I have to know what I am playing. However, if I am louder than everyone else, I'm not dumb to the fact that I HAVE TO TURN DOWN. It is all like a cake. It does not taste the same if you put the ingredients in your mouth. But when it properly blends, you got a darn good product. (C. Paxton) For the record, I understand your point. Just getting in my two cents worth.

[double_stop2584]

I play in a band that definitely has a very tight set, well rehearsed, and it is a primarily cover set (country, rock, r&b) - to the point that I can play it without even hearing myself. However, I REALLY like to hear myself, because it lets me hear my playing style - I find that without being able to hear it well, I tend to dig in way too much, as a few others have said.

So I treat it on a gig-by-gig basis. For instance, when we played four straight nights at a really big club in Georgia, I wanted to hear my bass. It was four nights of hell trying to get the sound to cut through, and I never really succeeded.
However, when we play 45 minute sets at a college, I don't really care if the student sound guys need me to turn down, but can't pump more through the monitors. I couldn't hear any note I played, but I got through it without really minding.

However, I will give props to TB for helping me get my rig EQ'd and positioned so that I am more likely to hear it!

[RickC]

I had an interesting gig last night. *Very* tight quarters, no PA except for vocals, no monitors. As it turned out the best spot for my brand new Epi UL-112 was sitting on top of an upright piano right above the drummers head. (The Epi sounded fantastic btw; I am in love). Everyone in the band commented how well they could hear the bass, and we had one of our best, tightest gigs ever. The point being, I believe having *everyone* onstage, including me, able to clearly hear the bass had a definite, beneficial effect on our performance.

This wasn't heavy "improv" music; it's a roots/country gig, a la Lucinda Williams. Those parts are easy, I *could* play them without hearing myself. But I'm a firm believer that having everyone able to hear everyone else is always a big plus, and that for bass in particular, in it's role as harmonic/rhythmic glue, this is even more important.

/rick

[amos]

Originally Posted by LiquidMidnight

Sometimes the situation isn't ideal. To make a long story short, the liqour control board in Central PA is a Nazi organization that goes around every couple times a year citing club owners if there is any noise heard outside of their establishments. Many owners have become obsessed with keeping the volume down, so I've become use to running really low stage volume in order to the let the engineers do their job better. There have been times that the gain on my preamp and power amp have been set on "1".

This is off-topic, but you mentioned the Central PA Liquor control board.

The OLCC (Oregon Liquor Control Commission) is worse. There are virtually no all ages venues in Portland, OR due to the archaic rules set in place by the OLCC. As such, a huge percentage of the college crowd simply does not come out to shows, and All Ages venues struggle to stay afloat. The most popular one (Meow Meow/Loveland), closed last June. (This was partly due to their new location, however).

They voted in January on proposed Minor Postings, so that clubs that have live music can allow kids over 18 if they implement a wristband system, as is the norm in most of the country. It failed 2-3, with IMO, most of the OLCC folks not even understanding the point of it in the first place.

I'm not sure if this is worse than telling rock bands to turn down, but it sure deafens (no pun intended) the thriving portland music scene a bit.

[fokof]

I played a gig , where the soundman asked us to lower the volume to the point where my amp was off. My drummer was playing with brushes and he had to put a T-Shirt on his snare to lower his volume!
We did the gig with big smiles , my radar fully opened , all went well , client happy , re-engaged us the next year ( very good $$$$ ).

It's a "Corporate" act , but like a lot of posters said , you have to adapt.

I do this for 25 years , and I learned to work with the soundman , not against him. If a soundman ask me to lower my volume , I start by cutting everything under +-100Hz , I still hear the pitch/groove , gives the FOH guy some place to mix the bass.

[pbass2]

I hear exactly where you're coming from. And 99.99999% of the time I hear other bassists at club gigs the bass is TOO loud because they're green about onstage mixes in relation to the house. Oh yeah, and TOO MUCH high end.
All this crap about "cutting through" has little to do with a proper mix in most clubs. It's just self-serving and ends up diminishing the whole experience for the audience. We should be striving for things to sound "like a record" for lack of a better term.
Anyhow, regardless of what I'm faced with---pummeling loud onstage mix, super quiet everything, or a just plain weird mix---my rule is, if I can't hear the kick drum, I'm too loud. If I follow that, things usually translate pretty well.

[amos]

I just got back from what turned out to be a truly great show, despite my low expectations. It was a super-bowl after party at a place on the east side, and I was expecting it to me completely dead. Well turns out our new singer knows everyone in the entire city! What a blast. One of the best parts was how good that room sounded for the size, and the stage mix was just about perfect. Not too loud, clear as a bell, everyone could hear everyone else as well as themselves extremely well. This is quite unusual for small clubs. I had a really groovy sound guy by the name of Bill ___(red haired tall dude). I did a DI out and a 57 on the cab, definitely the best way to go. I'm definitely going to request him next time we play there. I highly recommend Portland and even Seattle rock bands put together a show at the Tonic Lounge on NE Sandy. Part of the reason we expected it to be so dead was because ALL the bands we had billed or tried to get billed, flaked out on us. So it was a one band bill, and it worked flawlessly, somehow (Yeah, no idea either).. People drinkin and dancing, and a couple of my best friends came out to enjoy the tunes, which of course is always nice when people you really respect like the music you make and support your passion.

Back to the stage volume thing; we are a rock and roll band and we do have strong funk and blues influences as well. There's one guitarist, one drummer, myself, and a singer. We somehow manage to rock out without deafening ourselves, the audience, and our soundguy, and all the neighbors in the vicinity. I can kinda understand if you are competing with TWO guitarists, but I think a lot of us overcompensate for what our realistic stage volume should be. Most people would say you need a 4x10 to play rock, but I seem to get by just fine with two 1x12s. I do worry about my amp being a bit much for them, and that's a big reason why a lot of guys over compensate. I mean you can't turn up what's already maxed out. But I don't think anyone who was at the show tonight would disagree with the statement that we rocked the house.


I also had some epiphanies about talkbass and bassplaying in general, mainly about gear, and how I've been obsessing over minutia with the tone that I get with my rig. When in reality, it's not about the gear at all. I will save this for another thread though.

Cheers,
-David

[Ric5]

The best way for everyone in the band to hear what they want is in ear monitors. The in ear monitors are also a good way to protect your ears and also a good way to reduce stage volume and eliminate the old wedge stage monitors. And it can reduce microphone feedback as well.

[four2oh]

been discussing this same topic a lot lately with my bluegrass string band and out sound engineer..

as this band has no drummer, and bluegrass basslines are basically all 1&5 two-step, i tend to think of myself as the band's metronome, and therefore want to make sure the rest of band can hear/feel where the 1 falls (rest of the band has bad timing and tends to speed up, so i'm constantly pulling back the reigns). So i tend to want to crank up the Stage volume.. which of course leads to the battle of monitor levels with the rest of the band.. so the sound guy and i have been talking about perhaps using a "ButtKicker"-like device and build a platform that vibrates to the bass, so the rest of the band can truely FEEL where the 1 is. anyone have any experience with these type of devices in a stage setting?

[Mutant Corn]

I usually don't have a lot of volume, as my biggest amp is 40 watts.I just run a direct line from my Hartke A25 and use it as a monitor. Works just fine, and no massive rig to haul. Sucks when there's no PA for the gig though...then I have to haul my 50lb Basic 40...

[kirkm24]

Originally Posted by LiquidMidnight

Hey TBers,

I originally started writing this reply out to someone talking about getting their rig higher to their ears. Keep in mind, I'm not trying to be elitist or condesending with this opinion. Also, keep in mind, I'm referring more to structured music with this (e.g., most rock, pop, country, etc), not music that relies on a lot of improvisation. To me, that's apples and oranges on this subject. Anyways, what I started to write, plus other thoughts...

Honestly - and I mean this with all due respect - I have to laugh at bass players who are so finicky about being able to hear themselves so well on stage. That's just not as realistic as many cats think, because the sound waves aren't fully opened up three feet in front of your rig anyways. I can understand the need to hear yourself better when playing improvised music, but a seasoned player should be able to play structured music fairly well with little to no stage volume. Just last Saturday, the quarter inch end of my only Speakon cable went bad at the beginning of the night, so I did the gig with no stage volume. I could only go by what I heard coming from the FOH. Things sounded a little empty on stage, but performing was no big deal. Honestly, I can tell if something's out of key by how the stage vibrates, even if I can't hear everything clearly.

In the past couple of years, I've become acustomed to running low stage volume, sometimes so low that my bass is probably more quiet than the volume I listen to on my home stereo. I learned a long time ago, that while it's cool to have my speakers flapping my pant legs, sometimes stage volume must be sacrificed for a superior FOH sound, especially if it's a room that the engineer is required to keep a quiet yet still quality mix. That's something that's really important to me. Also, I'd much rather have a high quality rig that can deliver a clean and distinct tone at low volume than one that I turn up loudly and just get rumble.

Again, I'm not trying to come off like a jerk with this thread. Thoughts?

I agree with your views concerning loud stage volume and messing with the FOH mix. In my setting I keep my stage volume as low as I can but still being able to hear it. Since about 85% of our set is improvised and unrehearsed, I have to be able to hear what every one else is doing so in that regard, it is essential for me to be able to hear so there has to be at least enough stage volume to cut over the drums. I don't think it is really necessary to have a huge stage rig anymore. Back in the old days, PA's weren't as good so bands had to have huge stacks of cabinets and amplifiers to be heard by the audience. Now, with good PA systems, you really don't need anything more than a combo amp if the stage volume is balanced well and the FOH is mixed well. A lot of guys on here think its cool to have the massive rigs (that's why you see the "Show your rigs of doom" threads).

[kirkm24]

Originally Posted by fokof

I played a gig , where the soundman asked us to lower the volume to the point where my amp was off. My drummer was playing with brushes and he had to put a T-Shirt on his snare to lower his volume!
We did the gig with big smiles , my radar fully opened , all went well , client happy , re-engaged us the next year ( very good $$$$ ).

It's a "Corporate" act , but like a lot of posters said , you have to adapt.

I do this for 25 years , and I learned to work with the soundman , not against him. If a soundman ask me to lower my volume , I start by cutting everything under +-100Hz , I still hear the pitch/groove , gives the FOH guy some place to mix the bass.

I think another thing people tend to do is to crank the master volume if they can't hear themselves. I learned that you can give your high mids a slight boost and that is friendlier for the overall "stage mix" than cranking the master volume. My general rule of thumb is to set everything at 12 'O clock and cut and boost appropriately for the situation. Boosting master volume should always be the last resort.