The Myth Lives On!! (Underpowering)

[PlungerModerno]

Looking into drum monitoring info . . .

See for yourself:

(skip to 'Passive All-In-One Monitors', the second paragraph)

http://www.drumjunction.com/drum_monitor_system.html

There is a lot of BS out there.

[arai]

DC voltage etc

[lowfreq33]

Lol... Alesis...

[Tractorr]

Well what about these "digital" power amps from Gallien-Krueger?

They even make sure on the same page to let you know that they are different from their other amps that have an analog power amp.

http://www.gallien-krueger.com/products/combos/

[PlungerModerno]

Originally Posted by Tractorr

Well what about these "digital" power amps from Gallien-Krueger?

They even make sure on the same page to let you know that they are different from their other amps that have an analog power amp.

http://www.gallien-krueger.com/products/combos/

Strange . . . I always figured they were all using analog signals, except the ones that kind of use digital amplification with known distortion . . . like the class D heads and combos! (and powered cabs!).

Where is the inconsistency in the labelling or info? Oh. They don't describe the RB series heads power amp type . . . http://www.gallien-krueger.com/products/rb-heads/

In manuals:
http://www.gallien-krueger.com/support/product-manuals/

I can't find exact descriptions of their power sections

[Tractorr]

Originally Posted by PlungerModerno

Strange . . . I always figured they were all using analog signals, except the ones that kind of use digital amplification with known distortion . . . like the class D heads and combos! (and powered cabs!).

Where is the inconsistency in the labelling or info? Oh. They don't describe the RB series heads power amp type . . . http://www.gallien-krueger.com/products/rb-heads/

In manuals:
http://www.gallien-krueger.com/support/product-manuals/

I can't find exact descriptions of their power sections

To the best of my knowledge there is no such thing as a digital amplifier. "Digital amplifier" is mistakenly what people call class D amps. I think we just need another name for class D amps. The name seems negative so it just needs to be rebranded because digital amplifier is just not accurate.

[fdeck]

I think the "digital" thing is just a result of everything digital being cool. I remember when CD players first hit the market but were still too expensive for most people, hi-fi makers started labeling speakers, and even cables, as "digital ready."

[Tractorr]

Originally Posted by fdeck

I think the "digital" thing is just a result of everything digital being cool. I remember when CD players first hit the market but were still too expensive for most people, hi-fi makers started labeling speakers, and even cables, as "digital ready."

True, it is just kind of shocking that a company that is known as a quality brand feels they need to stoop to using terminology that they know to be incorrect.

[PlungerModerno]

Originally Posted by Tractorr

To the best of my knowledge there is no such thing as a digital amplifier. "Digital amplifier" is mistakenly what people call class D amps. I think we just need another name for class D amps. The name seems negative so it just needs to be rebranded because digital amplifier is just not accurate.

Fair enough. I've read that they don't really use DAC or ADC systems so they can't be called digital in a strict (i.e. correct) sense. The reason for using 'digital' may stem from an analogy with the microprocessing that is part of some preamps and other things like effects - the power amp may be bundled in by mistake in the terminology.

I don't know terribly well about it.

[KJung]

Originally Posted by PlungerModerno

Looking into drum monitoring info . . .

See for yourself:

(skip to 'Passive All-In-One Monitors', the second paragraph)

http://www.drumjunction.com/drum_monitor_system.html

There is a lot of BS out there.

This is a classic case (that we see in these threads constantly) of a little knowledge being dangerous.

In amplifying drums with a full range system (two way monitor with tweeter), it is well known that driving a power amp/speaker combination hard that is not up to the task can take out a tweeter quite easily (especially with the massive transients and upper treble level energy generated by drums), doing the 'permanent damage' that they quote. I realize this is technically not 'underpowering', but IMO the overall point is valid.

Similarly, all the smug comments about companies using the shorthand 'digital' label to describe amps with SMPS power supplies is harmless IMO. Most who are not in the 'amateur EE' club realize that 'digital' is just a shorthand description of, typically, a class D amp with an SMPS power supply. What is the issue?

[PlungerModerno]

Originally Posted by KJung

This is a classic case (that we see in these threads constantly) of a little knowledge being dangerous.

In amplifying drums with a full range system (two way monitor with tweeter), it is well known that driving a power amp/speaker combination hard that is not up to the task can take out a tweeter quite easily (especially with the massive transients and upper treble level energy generated by drums), doing the 'permanent damage' that they quote. I realize this is technically not 'underpowering', but IMO the overall point is valid.

Similarly, all the smug comments about companies using the shorthand 'digital' label to describe amps with SMPS power supplies is harmless IMO. Most who are not in the 'amateur EE' club realize that 'digital' is just a shorthand description of, typically, a class D amp with an SMPS power supply. What is the issue?

Seems about right. These myths are going to stick around for the foreseeable future.

[vbchaos]

I am much more shocked that they assume 20 kHz to be the lowest frequency that humans are capable to hear... on the other hand... I now feel a bit special

[i_got_a_mohawk]

Originally Posted by fdeck

I think the "digital" thing is just a result of everything digital being cool. I remember when CD players first hit the market but were still too expensive for most people, hi-fi makers started labeling speakers, and even cables, as "digital ready."

Not related to amps, but a similar headscratch, I've seen camera filters which are "for dSLR" or "HD".

[BogeyBass]

Originally Posted by fdeck

I think the "digital" thing is just a result of everything digital being cool. I remember when CD players first hit the market but were still too expensive for most people, hi-fi makers started labeling speakers, and even cables, as "digital ready."

LOL I remember stuff being labeled like that, even better was when cassette tapes were still around.
Certain ones were much much more expensive with a pretty label and were defiantly " Digital Ready" because thats what it said on the package...right

likewise with the drum monitor stuff...it would be really really horrible if you managed to underpower a 6.5 inch speaker...ohhh know!!! the humanity of it all. .....

[bumperbass]

Originally Posted by PlungerModerno

Looking into drum monitoring info . . .

See for yourself:

(skip to 'Passive All-In-One Monitors', the second paragraph)

http://www.drumjunction.com/drum_monitor_system.html

There is a lot of BS out there.

I thought it was still relevant that too little power could fry the voice coil in a tweeter (square waves, etc.). Am I ill-informed?

[RickenBoogie]

Yes. It's only too much power that will do harm. The misconception stems from lower powered amps being driven well past clipping to gain volume, (and any amp can generate double it's rated power when pushed), which then frys tweeters. But, it's nothing to do with "not enough power", just the opposite.

[megafiddle]

They are usually talking about the rated power of the amp when speaking of
underpowered speakers, eg, 100W amp / 200W cabinet.

Not actual output.

"Underpowered" is not the best term for it, but it is common and usually
understood as referring to rated power.

[PlungerModerno]

Originally Posted by megafiddle

They are usually talking about the rated power of the amp when speaking of
underpowered speakers, eg, 100W amp / 200W cabinet.

Not actual output.

"Underpowered" is not the best term for it, but it is common and usually
understood as referring to rated power.

The source that inspired this thread said:

"If you already have an external amplifier and want to save some money, this may be a great option. Just be sure you provide the correct power range to the monitor. It's obvious that too much power can fry a monitor, but too little power can also cause permanent damage."

I interpret this as pretty unambiguously stating that too much or too little power can fry a monitor. Which is wrong. The tweeter can be blown easier than the woofer and mid (if there is one) but it's not blown by too little power - if that was the case muting an amp would cause the attached cabs to blow.

[JHAz]

Originally Posted by PlungerModerno

The source that inspired this thread said:

"If you already have an external amplifier and want to save some money, this may be a great option. Just be sure you provide the correct power range to the monitor. It's obvious that too much power can fry a monitor, but too little power can also cause permanent damage."

I interpret this as pretty unambiguously stating that too much or too little power can fry a monitor. Which is wrong. The tweeter can be blown easier than the woofer and mid (if there is one) but it's not blown by too little power - if that was the case muting an amp would cause the attached cabs to blow.

True but think of the power of the opposite, incorrect, attitude: "sorry mr bar owner, I can't turn down or I'll blow my speakers."

[megafiddle]

Originally Posted by PlungerModerno

The source that inspired this thread said:

"If you already have an external amplifier and want to save some money, this may be a great option. Just be sure you provide the correct power range to the monitor. It's obvious that too much power can fry a monitor, but too little power can also cause permanent damage."

I interpret this as pretty unambiguously stating that too much or too little power can fry a monitor. Which is wrong. The tweeter can be blown easier than the woofer and mid (if there is one) but it's not blown by too little power - if that was the case muting an amp would cause the attached cabs to blow.

I agree completely as far as actual output power is concerned.
If taken literally in technical terms, it would indeed imply that
running an amp at low level would blow the speaker.

But in that case, it's not only wrong, it's ridiculous. In fact, it's
so ridiculous that I wouldn't expect anyone to interpret it that
way. The only interpretation that makes sense is that the amp's
rated power should not be significantly lower than the cab's rated
power.