nearly impossible to get a straight answer

[lizardwizard28]

Okay, im not trying to be a smart aleck here, its just that everytime I read a thread where the OP is asking about "what is enough wattage" especially tube vs solid state, i see about 100 different opinions. I know how large this site is so that is not shocking. And its the internet, so i take everything i read with a grain of salt. The best answer i consistently see is "try before you buy". Now...some people will say that 300 watts from a SS amp is not enough power for a gig, PA support or not. But generally i hear that say, a 300 watt Ampeg SVT will be more than enough power. This is where the can of worms is opened. Aside from available clean headroom and tube/ss overdrive, im told that watts are watts, be it tube or ss. Now what is it, is one more powerful than the other? Then, when answers cant be given, it quickly shifts to cabinets and speakers, ported vs non ported, effecient/non effecient, terms such as xmax, spl, excursion, ceramic vs neo. I owned a beautiful, fully functioning mesa buster! Head 200watt all tube through a bergantino nv610 that struggled against a 120 watt peavey xxx tube guitar head, but my 300 watt freebie behringer head barely broke a sweat. I think it really just comes down to opinion and hate to say, brand. I feel bad for the newbies asking this forum for buying advice, sometimes there are too many facts and opinions getting mixed with nostalgia and brand fanaticism. Anywho, thats my rant!

[JimmyM]

So you're shocked that different players have different needs and like some brands over others? Wow, I thought that was pretty self evident.

[famousbirds]

How much is enough money?

Ok, sorry for the snark. Here's a straight answer:

"It depends."

Or maybe:

"Enough to drive your speakers to the volume you need without clipping, and ideally still have some clean headroom left over, unless it's a tube amp, and you happen to be going for a cranked power-tubes sort of sound."

What size venue? Is there PA support? What style of music? How heavy handed is your drummer? How many cabinets? How many speakers? How efficient are the speakers? What kind of sound are you going for? How many strings on your bass?

The reality is that watts are only a small part of the volume equation. It has nothing to do with "brand loyalty" or "fanaticism". The variety of different answers people get reflect how complicated this issue, and how a variety of different approaches can all work.

[Nashrakh]

Protip: Wattage is not the only determinant of volume. Lurk more.

[Downunderwonder]

Originally Posted by lizardwizard28

Okay, im not trying to be a smart aleck here, its just that everytime I read a thread where the OP is asking about "what is enough wattage" especially tube vs solid state, i see about 100 different opinions.

I know how large this site is so that is not shocking. And its the internet, so i take everything i read with a grain of salt. The best answer i consistently see is "try before you buy".

Now...some people will say that 300 watts from a SS amp is not enough power for a gig, PA support or not. But generally i hear that say, a 300 watt Ampeg SVT will be more than enough power. This is where the can of worms is opened.

Aside from available clean headroom and tube/ss overdrive, im told that watts are watts, be it tube or ss. Now what is it, is one more powerful than the other?

Then, when answers cant be given, it quickly shifts to cabinets and speakers, ported vs non ported, effecient/non effecient, terms such as xmax, spl, excursion, ceramic vs neo.

I owned a beautiful, fully functioning mesa buster! Head 200watt all tube through a bergantino nv610 that struggled against a 120 watt peavey xxx tube guitar head, but my 300 watt freebie behringer head barely broke a sweat.

I think it really just comes down to opinion and hate to say, brand. I feel bad for the newbies asking this forum for buying advice, sometimes there are too many facts and opinions getting mixed with nostalgia and brand fanaticism.

Anywho, thats my rant!

Punctuate, dammit.

Rant responded.

[Downunderwonder]

There was a question in there?

[Lowactnsatsfctn]

1 Watt = 1 Joule per second
A Watt is A Watt...

[Corey Y]

I'm not trying to be glib or sarcastic, but if you ask a semantic question you get a semantic answer. "How much is enough?" isn't an objective question. Enough for who and in what situation? The problem of the whole "a watt is a watt" thing is that it's true, but also misleading. A watt IS a watt, but it's a not a measurement of volume and different amp companies measure the maximum electrical output (in watts) for their amps in different ways, by different standards. A 500 watt amp is more than likely going to be considerably louder than a 100 watt amp, but it's not going to be five times louder and you might not like the tone of one or the other at the volume you need. There's no sort of universal standard for determining the volume of an amp. Even if you're judging solely on power output, the manufacturer can't account for what speaker cabs you're using, how you're setting your EQ/gain or what the acoustics of the room may be. All of those things are going to affect perceived volume. You have to do your best to find a consistent subjective measurement that's useful to you. There's enough people posting here that you can probably find some who are in a similar situation to yourself, band lineup and gear wise, that you can get a decent cross section of opinion. That's only going to be a rough starting point, you're going to have to experiment and make your own comparisons at some point for those opinions to be really useful. Someone can tell you one piece of gear or another is too loud or too quiet for what you need, you may end up confirming that or realizing it doesn't apply at all to your specific situation.

One person using a 100 watt tube head through a 4x10 cab might find it too quiet, because they want a very clean tone and a particular tone. Another person using the same head through a different cab might want a gritty, driven tone and get the exact amount of volume they want for a gig.

Will a 300w Ampeg SVT be loud enough for a gig? Yeah, probably, if you're using it through an appropriate cab. Only you can figure out if it is for sure, if it's too much or if you even like the way it sounds at all. Most people here would be glad to offer you opinions, but they're only going to be so useful and you have to use your own judgement in how they stack up to your real experiences. The more of that experience someone accrues, the more effective their ability to pick through all that information and make a reasonable judgement about what's applicable to them will be.

Too much information can overload a beginner, but they can't be too afraid to ever buy anything because they don't know exactly how it will work out. Either way, hit or miss, it's probably not going to be the last gear purchase.

[walterw]

600 watts into one 10": probably not loud enough.

200 watts into 2 SVT cabs: probably loud enough.

[1958Bassman]

Originally Posted by lizardwizard28

Okay, im not trying to be a smart aleck here, its just that everytime I read a thread where the OP is asking about "what is enough wattage" especially tube vs solid state, i see about 100 different opinions. I know how large this site is so that is not shocking. And its the internet, so i take everything i read with a grain of salt. The best answer i consistently see is "try before you buy". Now...some people will say that 300 watts from a SS amp is not enough power for a gig, PA support or not. But generally i hear that say, a 300 watt Ampeg SVT will be more than enough power. This is where the can of worms is opened. Aside from available clean headroom and tube/ss overdrive, im told that watts are watts, be it tube or ss. Now what is it, is one more powerful than the other? Then, when answers cant be given, it quickly shifts to cabinets and speakers, ported vs non ported, effecient/non effecient, terms such as xmax, spl, excursion, ceramic vs neo. I owned a beautiful, fully functioning mesa buster! Head 200watt all tube through a bergantino nv610 that struggled against a 120 watt peavey xxx tube guitar head, but my 300 watt freebie behringer head barely broke a sweat. I think it really just comes down to opinion and hate to say, brand. I feel bad for the newbies asking this forum for buying advice, sometimes there are too many facts and opinions getting mixed with nostalgia and brand fanaticism. Anywho, thats my rant!

I find it incredible that one person can ask this question and think someone else can answer when they have never heard the person play and doesn't know what the rest of the rig includes or where they play. If the person asking always uses FOH, they don't need as much power unless they like it loud onstage and the rest of the band is OK with that. If they use drop tuning, it changes the needs. If compression and HP crossover are used, that changes things yet again. If the person asking doesn't specify exactly what's needed, what they're working with and how they play, it's impossible to supply an accurate answer.

This is similar to asking a stranger on the phone "what's my favorite color?".

[IPYF]

Originally Posted by lizardwizard28

I feel bad for the newbies asking this forum for buying advice, sometimes there are too many facts and opinions getting mixed with nostalgia and brand fanaticism.

I don't feel bad. Exactly the opposite in fact. There is no such thing as too much information.

[EpiRipper]

A watt is a unit of electrical power measurement, not a unit of volume measurement. A power amp that is rated at 10 watts and has 9 x 30 watt light bulbs on the front fascia is still classified as a 300 watt amp, as that is the amount of power it will draw from the power point. It ain't gonna be real loud, but it will look pretty!

[Hobobob]

Originally Posted by IPYF

There is no such thing as too much information.

Let me tell you about my bathroom habits...

I have to say, after being on Talkbass for a couple years and reading posts by geniuses like Bill Fitzmaurice, Greenboy, Alex Claber, and many others, my knowledge of amplifiers and what makes them tick has grown exponentially. Sure, it's a lot to digest at first - but after a few months of slowly figuring out what these guys were talking about, I was able to make much better decisions regarding amplification, and even give a little advice myself. So, don't feel sorry for me.

[rubbadubdub]

For what it's worth. It's all all a matter of whats watt or watts not. Watts it matter?
What is clear is that a watt is not what is whats worth worrying about.
A watt is measured in several ways. It can be used to make a sound system appear impressive on paper. It can be used by one fool to make another fool impressed. It can be used to sell one amplifier over another. It can be used to work out your utility bill.
IT CANNOT BE USED TO GIVE MUCH IDEA HOW LOUD A SOUND SYSTEM WILL BE!
It depends on too many variables so any one who gets hung up on watts is either clueless or trying to sell you something. All you have to say to them is.......
'Watt a lot of rot' and walk away.

[tekdiver500ft]

I won't address the "how much is enough" portion, as that is completely subjective.

Why is 300 SS watts not enough when 300 pure tube watts is? That one is easy. It's all about the average output and transient response. A SS amp that will hit 300 watts on the transients, may only be running 100 watts most of the time, for example. If you push it harder than this, it clips in an ugly way, so you turn it down. A tube amp that is pushing 300 watts on the transients, on the other hand, can be pushing 275 watts on average, and if you push it harder, it breaks up in a musical and pleasing way. The reality of it is that, in general, a 300 watt tube amp is as loud as a 1000 watt SS amp through the same cab.

[Wesley R]

A Watt is a Watt, until marketing get's a hold of it.

The percieved volume depends upon much more than Watt's.

[kevteop]

Originally Posted by Wesley R

The percieved volume depends upon much more than Watt's.

While this is true it's not much use to a potential amp buyer.

Assuming a decent modern cab (IE: Not just a single 15" from the early '90s in a cardboard box, perhaps a good 2x12 or 4x10 cab) and assuming you need to be loud enough to play with an un-miked drummer* a 300W head should do the job comfortably. A 100W head might have a hard time.

* Assumption based on the idea that if your drummer is miked you'll probably be going through the PA too, so your amp only needs to be loud enough for on-stage monitoring.

[magic papa]

Many will probably disagree, but here is my rule of thumb for small/mid indoor gigs with PA support:

Amp: >=500W for any gig, even rehearsal, anything less will struggle IMHO unless your music and drummer are fairly quiet.

An all-tube Ampeg SVT is an exception. 300W - watts are watts yes, but the tube Ampegs are freakishly loud (at least mine is). Don't know why, they just are. Anything else around this wattage is IMHO a waste of time for a gig.

Cabs:
10" - 4x10 - not enough, 6x10 should suffice
12" - 4x12 - should be fine
15" - 2x15 - not be enough, you need more speakers

Cheers

MP

[micgtr71]

One thing I found is that the cabinet/head combination is the critical factor. I had two rigs that would baffle me. My 350 watt Hartke head paired with a 210 and a 115 cab was louder than my 400 watt SWR amp into a 410 Goliath. It makes sense now...kind of.

The thing that got me was that I used an Ampeg BA115 combo amp one night and was shocked when it was louder than my SM400/Goliath II rig. I believe it is 100 watts with one 15" speaker.

Anyway, I quit looking at watts and just plug it in an turn it up. Before I commit to something, I ask if I can try it on a gig to see how it works, which luckily they usually let me do because I have been a long time customer.

[ArtechnikA]

I'm going for pithy but it might just sound terse. It's early...
I'm new to basses but not music nor amplification. And I've been an engineer forever.

So - a watt _is_ a watt - but it's the wrong question, because what you _really_ want to know is - What can I do with it?

It's like asking 'How fast can you run?'

"Run to the next room" vs "Run a marathon" == this is why there are 'peak watts' and 'watts rms.' Do you want to be able to play ONE loud, clean note - or do you want to be able to play actual music?

"Run in gym shorts" vs "Run carrying this 60-lb pack" == this is about load. If you're trying to power a big cab, you're going to need more watts. (There's a whole book here on impedance I am leaving out...)

"How fast can _you_ run?" Are you Usain Bolt? Or are you a couch potato? Amps are different, especially vintage amps, with lots of assembly-line variation, little quality control, and 'optimistic' ratings. And even with 'modern' amps, some lemons are going to get through. One might just be defective. Or it might be a great design with one defective part. You think you can make all that power without some stress?

"Can you run fast enough?" Now it starts getting subjective. What are you carrying? How far do you need to carry it? Can you carry that 60-lb pack far enough to escape the burning building, or do you go down in flames? You can either just try it, or you can plan to be strong enough and fast enough to run _any_ distance.

Back to basses - what do you play? If you've got 'Low-B' tuning, you need to push a lot more air. Basses in general need to push a lot of air, and it takes a lot of speaker surface area (or to a lesser extent - cone travel) to push that air. A speaker is just an air pump...

Practically - there's two ways to approach it, assuming "Just Get Too Much" is out - 2000W and 8x12 oughtta be enough - but it's big, heavy, expensive, and not a practical option.

1) Research - find players who play what you play (music style, bass types) and see what they use. Or try some - keeping in mind that individual-variation issue. If they're used, you may never know 'how used' it is...

2) Just Pick One. See if it works for you. If it doesn't you _should_ know what about it you don't like so you know what they next one needs. Sell it, trade it, whatever. Consider the cost an educational expense.

So a Watt is a Watt really - but through time, some manufacturers were more optimistic about their labelling than others.

Watts don't matter, really - what you want do _do_ with the watts matters. Only you can know.

Personal aside - I've had a few guitar amps through the years but I'm shopping for my first bass rig. I know what I want in my sound. I have a good feel for what kind of cabs it'll take to make that sound, and that helps me decide how many watts I need. I've spent hours on YouTube watching musicians who play similar styles and checking out their choices. (Some of them have endorsement deals which I factor in.) I've narrowed the field to a few. I'm reading all the reviews. (Written by who knows who - which I factor in.) This very weekend I'm going to the BassExpo here locally and I'm going to listen to everything. And then I'll start watching the sales. At some point there will be a deal I can live with and I'll make it happen.