Need Advice Putting Together A New Rig / Potential LDS Build

philter25 · #1 03-06-2011, 06:30 PM

Im in a rock cover band and I play a 4 string Ibanes SR700 bass and Im thinking about putting together a new rig. I gig in the DC area, stages are very very small, and I usually have to park around the block and carry my gear, so the schlep factor is pretty high.

For cabinets: Ive been debating 2-way or 3-way cabinets and Im thinking about going the LDS route. Because stages at the places we play are very small and because I have a G37 coupe, Im limited on the size of the cabinets. Ive been debating the 3012LF 12/6/1 vs using just a 12/6 vs just a 12/tweeter.

Ive done a little reading and Im leaning towards a 2- way 12" cabinet using the 3012HO speaker. Ive believe that the 3012LF speaker needs a mid driver whereas the 3012HO speaker could perform pretty well with a tweeter. Ive always had cabinets with a tweeter and when we do some slap songs, I like the sparkle the tweeter gives. Ive never had a cab with a mid driver, so can they provide the same sparkle that your big name speaker companies do with their 210+ tweeters?

Also, based on the spec sheets, it seems the 3012HO can go into a smaller cab than the 3012LF can, so that seems to fit my needs for a small cabinet.

For our songs, I play a 4 string bass dropped down 1/2 step for tuning and then we play a few songs dropped Db. So Db is the lowest note I would ever play on a bass. I hear people say the 3012LF goes low..... but what about the 3012HO? Would that suffice to handle the lowest note I play?

will33 · #2 03-06-2011, 06:48 PM

The HO is the louder spec'ed one, ie: more sound coming out per watt going in. More "mid-forward" for lack of a better term but has enough excursion to dial in a bit more bass if you want it.

The LF is a high class woofer, goes lower, and has so much excursion it can get damn loud if you've got the power to take it there. Which is better may depend on the amp you're using and your overall tonal requirements.

I can tell you after going 2-way with a 6 on the topend it sucks not having it. Most decent ones will reach 5k which is plenty for me. If you want more snap on your slap, you could highpass a tweeter up there without having to get uber-expensive stuff.

If you want this to be truly a one cab does it all and probably have a bit more volume on tap than you actually need to "rock" I might suggest using the 3015LF/6/1 and having your build done with as small a footprint as possible for your cramped stages and building tall to get the needed internal volume then using some kind of tilt back and roll scheme for schlepping. Skinny tall things are easier to get in a car door and lay across the backseat or wherever than a cube.

philter25 · #3 03-06-2011, 07:17 PM

I considered the 15, but Im not sure if my footprint is too small.

Im looking at a cab which is max 14 inches deep, max 18.5 wide, and as you pointed out, the height can be adjustable. The tall and skinny is the only way its going to fit into the car but the tall side cant be more than 28 inches. So im at about 4.2 cuft before subtracting out any volume from the speakers, bracing, batting, etc.

And I should have added that Im trying to make this also as light as possible due to the fact that I regularly have to carry my gear a few blocks in DC. Ideally, 35 lbs would be great, but I dont know how realistic that is.

Id love to be able to pick up an off the shelf 3 way that would work, but the avatar is just too big and too heavy to work.

Im currently using my GK MB210 combo, which is perfect for the smaller venues and has a perfect size and weight for me. Im just debating going back to the seperates route to get a head/cab which is a little more transparent and can handle just a tad more volume. Im looking in the 400-500 watt range and currently, I dont have a head. The plan is to pick out the head and cab together to get something that work with each other and since I seem to be a lot more restrictive on the cabinet, Im crossing that bridge first to get whats going to meet my needs, and then pick up a head which works.

Im currently using my PBDDI sansamp as a preamp. Playing in a cover band, I need to be able to change tones from song to song and this setup gives me the versatility to do so. Ill probably keep the PBDDI setup for the rig Im looking to put together, or else get a VT bass deluxe pedal in the front. So Ideally Id shape my tone from the PBDDI or VT bass, run through a lightweight amp, and have a transparent cab at the end of it all.

And yes, my goal for this is to be a 1 cab solution for small/medium sized venues.

Foz · #4 03-06-2011, 09:32 PM

one of these might do ya right

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/new-p...-bass-cab.html

philter25 · #5 03-07-2011, 06:16 AM

^ Ive read through the numerous threads on the thunderchild. I love the specs, love the size, love the weight.

At 4 ohms, I could pick up any micro head and be done with a new rig.

And Im aware of the benefits of buying a designed system with hours and hours of R&D into it vs. having a custom builder put one together.

And ive read Duke's posts and he seems to be an extremely knowledgeable person who knows the ins and outs on design and probably makes a fantastic product.

But...... and I know this might seem silly to some, I personally dont like the look. If the front baffle was slightly recessed 3/4" and there was a solid black metal grill across the front, then that would probably be my front runner.

Foz · #6 03-07-2011, 07:31 AM

Quote:

I personally dont like the look.

You're right - that does sound pretty silly.

I look at the thing and think - that is one fine looking piece of kit. To your concern in specific, that non-recessed baffle will yield diminished edge diffraction [a form of distortion] - a feature which all cabs could benefit from, but which is complicated to implement and not typically available in musical instrument cabs. For me, that aint a bug its a five star feature from planet audiophile.

But if the Thunderchild is overly "futuristic" looking - maybe try a 12/6 fEarful. Perhaps even one implemented in the Nidacore panels for ultra-low weight?

8_finger · #7 03-07-2011, 07:58 AM

I know this is not what you originally posted, but did you consider Schroeder cabs? The 15L+ or the newer PL15 - both of them come close to the weight and size requirements you specified.
They don't go super low, but they are really loud and really light and easy to transport.

philter25 · #8 03-07-2011, 08:34 AM

Dont get me wrong, the TC112 is still on my list because it meets all my requirements of volume, size, lightness, portability.

Maybe if someone slaps the looks-sillyness out of me....

And before someone suggests the Barefaced, I cant afford one. If money was no problem, Id get 2 midgets T's and call it a day.

Quote:

Originally Posted by 8_finger

I know this is not what you originally posted, but did you consider Schroeder cabs? The 15L+ or the newer PL15 - both of them come close to the weight and size requirements you specified.
They don't go super low, but they are really loud and really light and easy to transport.

I looked at them, but the only ones which are 14" or under in the depth department are the mini 12, and 10s.

I need one dimension which is 14 inches or smaller which has been really restrictive. Id have a lot more options if I just traded my car in....... but thats not a good financial move.... and I love my car.

KJung · #9 03-07-2011, 08:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by philter25

Dont get me wrong, the TC112 is still on my list because it meets all my requirements of volume, size, lightness, portability.

Maybe if someone slaps the looks-sillyness out of me....

And before someone suggests the Barefaced, I cant afford one. If money was no problem, Id get 2 midgets T's and call it a day.

I looked at them, but the only ones which are 14" or under in the depth department are the mini 12, and 10s.

I need one dimension which is 14 inches or smaller which has been really restrictive. Id have a lot more options if I just traded my car in....... but thats not a good financial move.... and I love my car.

I think the TC looks fantastic myself. It is quite a different sounding cab from your normal bass cab, and it looks it.

All the cabs you are considering are great, and all sound quite different. The TC is very smooth in the upper mids, plenty of upper treble response, and a very usable, real low end. The LDS 12/6 is deeper and has a bit more upper mid brightness and not as much upper treble if you don't use a tweeter. However, Don uses the wonderful Faital mid driver in his 12/6 cabs, and unless you want full out Marcus Miller sizzle, no tweeter is needed.

The 3012HO cabs are a different thing... tighter, puncher in the mids, and a MUCH different, brighter upper mid response. I would not really consider a single 112 of this design as a stand alone cab... two of them kill (when one has a tweeter).

All good stuff!

philter25 · #10 03-07-2011, 02:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KJung

The 3012HO cabs are a different thing... tighter, puncher in the mids, and a MUCH different, brighter upper mid response. I would not really consider a single 112 of this design as a stand alone cab... two of them kill (when one has a tweeter).

All good stuff!

Hey Ken,

Why would you not consider a single 3012HO as a stand alone? I was thinking of a 12/6 or 12/tweet using the 3012HO. I like clarity and I dont like scooped mids, so after reading 45 threads today, it sounds like the 3012HO with a mid driver would fit the bill. You disagree?

JimiLL · #11 03-07-2011, 02:22 PM

SVT/810

rpsands · #12 03-07-2011, 02:24 PM

If I were in a rock cover band there is one cab I would use, and it would be my Jack 12 w/3012HO.

KJung · #13 03-07-2011, 02:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by philter25

Hey Ken,

Why would you not consider a single 3012HO as a stand alone? I was thinking of a 12/6 or 12/tweet using the 3012HO. I like clarity and I dont like scooped mids, so after reading 45 threads today, it sounds like the 3012HO with a mid driver would fit the bill. You disagree?

Might be OK. I've never been happy with a single 112 until experienced those 3012LF cabs. And even then, they are about equivalent to a good 210 cab, or a touch more.

Just depends how much volume and ooomph you need. My TC112 with the full 500 watts going into it gives me 'almost 310' sort of coverage, which is very impressive. I did not get that feeling with a single 3012HO cab (at least not when I dialed in the low end I liked).
The 3015 non LF is another story... that thing wumps.

If I was going with a mid driver, might as well go for the LF and have Don make you a 12/6. If you can pump 400 or 500 watts into it, it will kill. And, will sound good with the typical 300 of a micro running at 8ohms.

Quite frankly, that LDS 12/6 with the LF and the Faital mid driver, and the new Genz Streamliner 900, and you would be good to go, assuming you wanted it more warm and fat versus sizzly and grindy.

philter25 · #14 03-26-2011, 01:29 PM

So comparing the thunderchild 112 to the fearful or LDS nearful 12/6/1:

Given the same amp with the same settings, which would be louder? Would the 4 ohms of the tc112 make it louder, or the sensitivity of the other drivers?

Currently Im using a MB210 combo, so would all these "super 112s" be louder than my 210?

OR should I wait out until the 3010lf is released and be able to make a 4 ohm 210/6/1 cab?

philter25 · #15 03-29-2011, 06:58 AM

I also have been trying to read up as much as I can and learn as much about the this topic, so I apologize if this is a noob question.....

but in 3 way designs, it seems you have your woofer, mid driver, and tweeter crossed over at like 800 hz and 2k.

Why wouldnt someone want to use the woofer but then a compression driver that has a flatter response?

FaitalPRO - Professional Loudspeakers Made in Italy

Something like this looks like its pretty flat from 800 hz up to 20k hz. Now I dont know the cost, so it could cost 50 grand, but why wouldnt a 2 way box with a high quality woofer and a high quality tweeter be a good option vs. the 3 way design.

Does it have anything to do with the impedance spike?

DukeLeJeune · #16 03-29-2011, 01:28 PM

Philter25, what you're describing (large format compression driver + big woofer) would definitely work well! I have looked into this type of cab, and in the end concluded that it would be great but probably not competitive.

I see two problems and they both have to do with money: First, that sort of compression driver is rather expensive. Second, and this is just me personally, suitable horns are very rare and expensive. I am very picky about horns. That driver (which is priced on the low side for a large-format type) plus a suitable horn would retail for over $500, and I might be able to get them for 20% off (more discount for a quantity purchase, but that's not likely to happen). So that's $400+ right there, for a boutique manufacturer. I think we'd end up with a great-sounding cab that's also a great deal more expensive than its competition, and I'm not sure that's a winning combination.

The reason I use relatively inexpensive little 1" compression drivers is because I found an inexpensive horn that I really like. I like it better than any off-the-shelf large-format horn that I have measured, even though my little horn is less than 1/10th the price (talking about the horn itself, minus the compression driver). This in turn dictates 10" or 12" woofers... or a 15" woofer that can go up an octave higher than 800 Hz, along with a 1" compression driver that can reach lower than most.

greenboy · #17 03-29-2011, 01:35 PM

Not to mention that when you are all done it's usually not all that suited for overdrive-oriented players, makes a box often bigger than desired, and driver spacing in the nearfield with cab on floor and player standing up is makes good frequency balance problematic, and power handling itself often becomes a bigger issue.

DukeLeJeune · #18 03-29-2011, 01:56 PM

Thanks for the additional thinking-it-through, greenboy. Yeah even with their higher crossover, I doubt that my cabs are nearly as good as yours with distortion/overdrive.

Still, one of these days, I'd love to have a good excuse to play with a large format compression driver atop a pair of 3015LFs, though I'd probably have to call it a "keyboard cab"...

greenboy · #19 03-29-2011, 03:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DukeLeJeune

Thanks for the additional thinking-it-through, greenboy. Yeah even with their higher crossover, I doubt that my cabs are nearly as good as yours with distortion/overdrive.

Still, one of these days, I'd love to have a good excuse to play with a large format compression driver atop a pair of 3015LFs, though I'd probably have to call it a "keyboard cab"...

Oh no, Duke, I was referring to larger format lenses - well: taller ones anyway. As that distance increases between elements and a player is standing close to the cab the balance just get funky. With the flare we've both used it's not nearly so drastic because you can space pretty close. But I've noticed with PA cabs with really big/tall horn flares that they may sound great when you are further away from them, but they really stink when they are on the floor and you are up next to them.

philter25 · #20 03-29-2011, 08:10 PM

^ admittedly, I had to read your and dukes replies 3 times each to make sure i understood what you were saying.

Duke, I get the cost thing.

If only the ampeg portabass P210 cabinet sounded good and and didnt have issues have issues. great size, great weight, great portability, lousy sound. Maybe the eminence kappalite 3010 speakers will be my savior.