need suggesstions - DIY 215 content

[pie_man_25]

Hello TB amps forums.

I'm a bit of a DIY nutjob, to be frank, and if I grow an interest in something, I'm bound to try my hand at making it - be it beer, ukuleles, basses, I'd even like to try refurbishing a car some day - but that's in the distant world of some day, for now it's not feasible for a number of reasons (money being the first). Anyways, I've been considering getting a new cabinet (or two) for my bass rig, seeing as I've been having a hard time keeping up to two guitarists without my Warwick 410pro chuffing out at the bigger gigs (gigs at larger bars, and the outdoor show we've played a while ago) we've been playing as of late. To be frank, I don't want this cabinet to break on me and it's perfect for our smaller gigs at the moment which still make up most of our gigs. I understand completely that the best way to expand on this would be to get another 410 pro, but they aren't made by warwick any more, and they are impossible (for me at least) to find used.

I've looked up on kijiji to find some other speaker cabinets, and nothing seems to be showing up. Somebody is, however, selling 4 Peavey "scorpion" SP 15825 speakers at "best offer". I've read a bit of the speaker building bible, as well as played around a bit on WinISD using the specs supplied by Peavey for these speakers, and I've got a VERY rough design for a 215 cabinet to bring to the bigger gigs. I'm a bit conflicted with this idea however, mostly because the xMax of these speakers is 3.1 mm, while the average is 4 mm, and the headroom of this cabinet would only be 400 watts RMS, among other considerations. I'm not entirely sure that this would be the best way for me to increase my volume for larger gigs, even if I DON'T screw up too much with the cabinet design, how much more SPL would I really be able to reach?

Keep in mind that I'm in no real rush - I would not even building this project until at least June, and I'm permitted to borrow my buddy's ampeg 610HLF for the time being. I've considered some options - primarily building a fEARfull 15/6 and selling the 410 pro to help fund it, or perhaps design this cabinet with the concept of buying a "better" speaker later on in mind, as well as looking for some used cabinets, and I'm a bit unsure as to where to go with this project. I would like a bit of help coming to my conclusion, and to be honest, as has been mentioned, I like DIY projects a lot, and I would like to build something, though I'm not particularly averse to using someone else's design, although the fEARful is a bit expensive for me at the moment considering the cost of the 3015 alone.

Ps - if I do decide to go ahead with this, I'll likely be posting updates and pics in this thread.

[will33]

The overall output likely wouldn't be any greater due to the short xmax. I think it'd be money wasted. Used 1505DT-8 BlackWidows or new Eminence Legend CB158's would be a step up. Some of the Kappa Pro series would get you there, not sure of their price. Some of their xmax doesn't look that impressive but their xlim is way out there. Basically be able to crank it without damage....within reason of course.

[will33]

A note about the fEARful designs...1 Kappalite3015LF has the displacement of roughly 2 "regular" 15's. Consider that when looking at price. You could forgo the tweeter and use a less expensive mid like a B&C 6md38 or similar. It wouldn't be a true fEARful anymore but still a helluva good 2-way.

Of course money is money. If you can get ahold of a pair of decent 15's, make a 215. I just don't think Scorpions are worth it.

[rpsands]

More like four regular 15s and two high end 15s.

* if you're building a bargain 2x15, consider the Peavey 15" neos. They're 70 bucks, and have low enough Fs and high enough Q to probably work as bass woofers---short Xmax, but they're loud and very cheap.
http://www.peavey.com/products/speak...2/Pro15Neo.cfm

Figure somewhere around 50-100 watts apiece in real power handling for bass guitar, depending on your tuning.

[will33]

I hadn't noticed those. Maybe a choice for PA cabs. Neither those or the Scorpions would have any more output than his 410 I wouldn't think. I wouldn't consider 2.5 or 3.1 as acceptable excursion for bass cabs. Although the old 1502 BW's had something like 2.8. Some people like them. They're loud but they sure fart out early.

[will33]

I had no idea what kijiji is but apparently some version of ebay. Very few listings where I live. Our craigslist here has 200-300 per day under musical instruments.

OP, where do live? What's the used market like there?

[will33]

Originally Posted by rpsands

More like four regular 15s and two high end 15s.

* if you're building a bargain 2x15, consider the Peavey 15" neos. They're 70 bucks, and have low enough Fs and high enough Q to probably work as bass woofers---short Xmax, but they're loud and very cheap.
Peavey :: Pro 15 Neo

Figure somewhere around 50-100 watts apiece in real power handling for bass guitar, depending on your tuning.

Now you've got me looking at a pair of those for my PA cabs so I can get my widows back where they belong.

[rpsands]

I have the Pro 15 non-neo speakers in my PR15s and they're very capable woofers for PA. Sound good. Not great, but good.

Similar specs.

[pie_man_25]

Originally Posted by will33

A note about the fEARful designs...1 Kappalite3015LF has the displacement of roughly 2 "regular" 15's. Consider that when looking at price. You could forgo the tweeter and use a less expensive mid like a B&C 6md38 or similar. It wouldn't be a true fEARful anymore but still a helluva good 2-way.

Of course money is money. If you can get ahold of a pair of decent 15's, make a 215. I just don't think Scorpions are worth it.

this actually seems like a pretty good idea, I could always upgrade the midrange later on, and if I were to buy two eminence legends then I would likely be spending a similar amount of money for two speakers, and I'd possibly save on shipping with just buying the 3015LF. I've looked at both the Peavey Neos and the Eminence legends, and so far the Peaveys look like they're more suitable for PA work - if I go with two 8 ohm 15" cones to make a 4 ohm enclosure, I'll be pumping a little bit over 300 watts into them, 300 watts isn't too much power (or so I'm led to believe), but apparently I can fart out a well made 410 with it.

The current used market isn't too good in my area - Windsor, ON, Canada. It's basically a bunch of 410s similar to mine, but it's mostly guitarist's gear, which is pretty much the same as anything I can get new in town - so I'm limited to what I can get to more or less what I can order.

Like I said though, I'm in no big rush - this is mostly me planning for the larger gigs that are hopefully to come in the near future, as well as the guitarist's new Peavey Windsor halfstack. I found it difficult to be heard with my 410 at the last gig in one of the bigger local bars.

[will33]

Originally Posted by rpsands

I have the Pro 15 non-neo speakers in my PR15s and they're very capable woofers for PA. Sound good. Not great, but good.

Similar specs.

They look like they'd work nicely in mine. I'm re-outfitting with BFM cabs and more gadgets for bigger stuff but there are still small gigs where I'd just grab a powered mixer and a pair of fullrange regular 3way mains.

[BogeyBass]

Uh oh sounds like the pie_man_25 has got the itch to build something.

a 2x15 pair , 4x10 and A Single high power 15

Will all reach a max SPL of 124 to 126dB before distortion really kicks in.

It would take 250watts to do this with a 4x10 and 2x15
and it would take 450 watts with a single high power 15

the cheapest way to do this has been well done over and over again, with the same dam drivers

2x15 Eminence Legend CB158
4x10 Eminence Legend B810
1x15 Eminence 3015LF

Obvious that Using multiple low cost drivers, will save on overall cost since the Drivers are cheaper and the amplifier power needed is lower. The overall system is larger, but the sound pressure is the same, with the added benefit of more dispersion and overall presence of multiple drivers. And if more than 2 drivers are used with a vertical alignment the system will further benefit.

blah blah blah anyways, Spend your money on the legends for your 2x15.
Eminence figured out how to make something good with low cost a long long time ago. really is no other way to build a performer without spending more money. Sky is the limit for high cost, but any 15 under 130$ is going to be a royal P0P (piece of poo)

The only other similar performer is the Eminence Kappa Pro 15.
If you compare it to a legend almost the same speaker. Similar magnet weight, cast frame, voice coil etc....But the Legend has been optimized for fullrange bass, and the Kappa Pro has been thermally optimized for PA use with a crossover. It would be rather muddy as a fullrange bass speaker.

[will33]

Originally Posted by BogeyBass

Uh oh sounds like the pie_man_25 has got the itch to build something.

a 2x15 pair , 4x10 and A Single high power 15

Will all reach a max SPL of 124 to 126dB before distortion really kicks in.

It would take 250watts to do this with a 4x10 and 2x15
and it would take 450 watts with a single high power 15
U
the cheapest way to do this has been well done over and over again, with the same dam drivers

2x15 Eminence Legend CB158
4x10 Eminence Legend B810
1x15 Eminence 3015LF

Obvious that Using multiple low cost drivers, will save on overall cost since the Drivers are cheaper and the amplifier power needed is lower. The overall system is larger, but the sound pressure is the same, with the added benefit of more dispersion and overall presence of multiple drivers. And if more than 2 drivers are used with a vertical alignment the system will further benefit.

blah blah blah anyways, Spend your money on the legends for your 2x15.
Eminence figured out how to make something good with low cost a long long time ago. really is no other way to build a performer without spending more money. Sky is the limit for high cost, but any 15 under 130$ is going to be a royal P0P (piece of poo)

The only other similar performer is the Eminence Kappa Pro 15.
If you compare it to a legend almost the same speaker. Similar magnet weight, cast frame, voice coil etc....But the Legend has been optimized for fullrange bass, and the Kappa Pro has been thermally optimized for PA use with a crossover. It would be rather muddy as a fullrange bass speaker.

+1 to all that.

Another point about the fEARful...they require big power. 400+ watts at 8ohms qualifies as big power. I say require because that's what it takes to realize their full potential. Don't lose sight of the fact that they are high in SPL and will get quite loud with less than that. That doesn't negate the fact that with less power than that, you are buying performance potential you will never hear. For many people, it doesn't just mean replacing a cab, it means replacing an amp as well. There are many folks to whom it makes more sense to use a 4ohm 215 at roughly the same cost to achieve similair output using amps they already own.

Not knocking the fEARful in any way, it's a fantastic design and I think Greenboy should be charging for it, but peoples needs and abilities do differ ya know. There's always the approach that says "power is cheap nowdays", and it is, if you're using a pre/power rack rig. But suppose you already have an amp you love the sound of and you can't just "add more power", or you have a glorious sounding tube head that doesn't have an 8ohm tap, or you have trouble sleeping at night buying cheap power from foreign kids getting 20 cents an hour if their lucky, or you're not old with a bad back and a small car and getting the most output out of the smallest, lightest package isn't your top priority, or you just simply can afford one, the other, but not both.

Different strokes.

All things to consider.

[::::BASSIST::::]

If I was going to do a DIY cab I would DEFINITELY go with a fEARful design. Since they are very loud and capable of taking big power you could always go the 1212/6 route or 12/6 &12sub route. Much more portable. However, the 1515/6/6 would be thunderous and you will be virtually guaranteed to be grinning from ear to ear.

Most people who have built a fEARful really dig it, and I don't see much point in trying to DIY a design when there is already something really wonderful out there that will kick the pants off of most any commercial cab.

Just my .02.

[will33]

The 1212/6 is a great option for a lot of folks.

[BogeyBass]

Originally Posted by will33

The 1212/6 is a great option for a lot of folks.

Yah 2x12 is a cool thing too.

But you could build a 4x15 or 8x12 for the same cost, and likewise only need 100 watts to reach 124 to 126 dB.

[will33]

Originally Posted by BogeyBass

Yah 2x12 is a cool thing too.

But you could build a 4x15 or 8x12 for the same cost, and likewise only need 100 watts to reach 124 to 126 dB.

[pie_man_25]

so, in other words, I might as well stick to my 410, or perhaps sell the 410 and buy a matching pair of budget-minded 410s? While I DO like the concept of building a cabinet a LOT, I don't see much benefit in building a 215 if my current 410 would get a similar SPL. Or perhaps I could just make 2 410s with the eminence legend b810s.

hmm....

dammit this doesn't help.

[DukeLeJeune]

If you're looking for maximum SPL per dollar, it's hard to beat used cabs.

But if you're looking for a high output 2x15, it's hard to beat something like this, and DIYing your own version is not unthinkable:

Barefaced Super Fifteen

[pie_man_25]

that was the original idea, given the evidence that I'm presented with currently it seems a bit infeasible - I'm projecting a total budget of $600 CAD (not that it makes much of a difference from USD), and my speaker budget is about $300 - if I were to get two higher end neodymium 15" drivers that would likely drive my cost up to $400 - $500. I can understand how it would be beneficial - lots of useable excursion and the ability to pump a lot of energy into one cabinet. This principle I think - from what I've read of will33's post - doesn't necessarily apply to me - I don't have an incredibly high-powered amp, nor can I really afford the more expensive high-end neo drivers. Perhaps I've been using the wrong approach, and what I should do is maximize the efficiency of my power by maximizing my speaker cone area.

edit: I forgot to mention, I play a 4-string, but it is perfectly commong for me to tune down to drop-Db.

[rpsands]

You may want to look into the BFM Jack series. They can be done with commodity drivers (Betas) and will get quite loud per watt at the expense of size and effort building--they're still pretty light.