New Eden 210XST speaker shredded

[BassmanPaul]

I have to agree with Murphy about running the cabinets full range. It's what I do. I run each cabinet on the two output channels of my amps and run the amps in parallel.

[SactoBass]

Originally Posted by BassmanPaul

That explains why the XLT was undamaged. It wasn't doing anything. All your sound was coming from the cabinet that blew. you were, in essence, using a single 2x10. As you have found out, bi-amping into two full range cabinets doesn't work too well.

BassmanPaul hit the nail on the head. Most of the energy is in the lows, and the XST was taking all of the pounding. My recommendation is to use two identical cabs and get rid of the bi-amping.

[HeavyJazz77]

Originally Posted by CL400Peavey

There is no such thing as under powering a speaker. This is clearly a case of over powering.

Please stop propagating the myth.

Trust me - if an amp is at the height of its output and send the driver a distorted signal, you will eventually burn up the voice coil. I've replaced enough speaker baskests from hapless DJs to know.

[CL400Peavey]

Originally Posted by HeavyJazz77

Trust me - if an amp is at the height of its output and send the driver a distorted signal, you will eventually burn up the voice coil. I've replaced enough speaker baskests from hapless DJs to know.

Please read the stickies at the top of the forum. Its not the distortion that hurts the speaker. Its the additional power that comes from running the amp that hard.

If distortion killed speakers, then no guitarist would be able to use anything but clean signal.

Further more the OP's post is an example of why you are dead wrong. He was using a cross over. So even if there was distortion that portion of the signal would be going to the undamaged speaker on the "high" side. Instead he exceeded the mechanical limits of the speaker so much that he pushed the magnet right through the cone.

[bgavin]

Originally Posted by trev5269

can you explain this a little bit more??

Sure.

A vented box works by resonance.
Think: blowing across a Coke bottle until you hear that one note.
The concept is a Helmholtz Resonator, and easily found on any Wiki.

At the resonant frequency the air mass in the vent oscillates against the air mass in the cabinet, in sync with the cone.
When the driver is moving inward, the vent air mass is also moving inward, which doubly compresses the air inside the cabinet.
The increased compression produces additional resistance to cone movement.
The cone motion is nearly at a standstill, so the note you hear comes from the vent.

You can visually test for this by placing the cab on its back and dropping a few uncooked rice kernels on the cone.
Move up and down the scale until you find the note with the least amount of jumping rice.

When sufficient energy is applied to the driver it fails from too much pressure.
Another side effect is over heating the voice coil at resonance because the cone is not moving to provide cooling.

A lot of Eden gear is tuned in the mid-40's Hz range.
E1 = 41.2 Hz
F1 = 43.6 Hz
G1 = 49.0 Hz

As an example, assume the player is pedaling hard on F1, 44 Hz, (D410-XLT resonance).
For whatever reason, he decides to over power the cab.
The cones are locked rigid at resonance, and something has to give.
The XLT usually creases the cone(s), which buckle under the load.
It is much worse in a horn loaded cabinet, because the very high pressure tears the cone to shreds.

[trev5269]

So, to fix this problem, I've exercised some options...

First, I am going to return the new GX7 and get a GX5

the GX7 was throwing out 1000w @ 4ohm each channel, so I had the gain knobs on each channel almost completely off.

With the GX5 throwing out 700w @ 4ohm I should have more control.

Here is my question: the XST is rated at 500w@4, and the XLT is 350w@4ohm. I was digging the sound of the crossover, however, it obviously got pushed too hard. I had the crossover around 900hz and the the XST was getting slightly more gain from the amp.

What would be my best bet, seeing as the crossover sounded better than running both at full range with the XST still getting slightly more power.

I was wondering, maybe I should consider 2 XST's running at full range out of each channel of the GX5 ( i have an alembic f-1x preamp. ) If not, is there any way I can stay with the crossover or run fullrange in a most efficient manner, because when I was running full range I felt I was pushing the XLT @ 350 too hard before I was getting what i wanted out of the XST when sending equal power.

Would it work to run them both in full-range and send slightly less power to the XLT to prevent this? Or would i get the preferred tone from teh bi-amp situation before by simply getting 2 XST's.


p.s. the tweeter was off on my XST when it blew, dono if that has anything to do with it, seeing as it was only getting under 900hz freq.


any advice would be much appreciated

[Arjank]

Originally Posted by bgavin

At the resonant frequency the air mass in the vent oscillates against the air mass in the cabinet, in sync with the cone.
When the driver is moving inward, the vent air mass is also moving inward, which doubly compresses the air inside the cabinet.
The increased compression produces additional resistance to cone movement.
The cone motion is nearly at a standstill, so the note you hear comes from the vent.

+1 Nicely explained bgavin.

[BassmanPaul]

You have run into one of the problems of mismatched speaker cabinets. You can't EQ to suit both cabinets needs. This is one of the reasons why a lot of us recommend matching cabinets. If you like how one sounds, a second will give you more of what you like.

[trev5269]

Update: I took grille off my cabs, both speakers are shot. The one i initially talked about is ripped completely, where the other has a tonnn of creases all over it. Id imagine I have to replace both. I also inspected my XLT and both speakers have a small 3-5" crease that is barely noticeable. Do I have to replace both of these too??

I also got quoted at 160+tax on a recone and 240+tax to replace a single speaker, does this sound right?

[Arjank]

Originally Posted by trev5269

Update: I took grille off my cabs, both speakers are shot. The one i initially talked about is ripped completely, where the other has a tonnn of creases all over it. Id imagine I have to replace both. I also inspected my XLT and both speakers have a small 3-5" crease that is barely noticeable. Do I have to replace both of these too??

If the others are creased they might not be able to handle as much power as before since the voice-coil may rub against the magnet gap when making larger excursions.
But this is hard to tell without inspecting/hearing the drivers.

Originally Posted by trev5269

I also got quoted at 160+tax on a recone and 240+tax to replace a single speaker, does this sound right?

IMHO thats way to expensive, buy different (better)drivers or get a good 2nd hand cabinet.
Where do you live US, Europe?

[wounded horse]

I see (possibly) you're in the Netherlands. If I'm Right, give Alex Claber a call at Barefaced. Compared to the absurd quoted prices for recones/replacements, you'll get a real bass cab and I'm sure getting it from Brighton UK to NL can't be in the same ballpark. You also have Hevos/Glock/EBS to check out.

Commercially available bass cabs mostly don't do it for me. Compromised driver(s), little or no bracing, basic manufacturing techniques, particle board. Why I made a Dave Greenboy 12126. It likes loud. Plenty off watts don't trouble it. Best cab I ever used and I've used plenty. All the names.

[Arjank]

If you're indeed from the Netherlands send me a PM and I can upgrade your Edens (with pleasure)

[MrLenny1]

I have owned that cab for 6 years, pushed it hard any never had any issues.
Must have been defective. Get it reconed, Eden is still very good gear.

[Arjank]

Originally Posted by MrLenny1

I have owned that cab for 6 years, pushed it hard any never had any issues.
Must have been defective. Get it reconed, Eden is still very good gear.

I don't want to bash Eden but I've compared the 210XST with my 210 and it came nowhere close....
I can offer a driver upgrade(if the OP is from the Netherlands) at less then the price of replacing the original drivers(and these will not crease...)

[trev5269]

Would not fixing both cabs and getting a Bergantino 4x12 be a good idea? :]

maybe replace eden speaks down the road

[foxbass58]

Hi Trev
I feel your pain bro.
I have Eden 410xlt and 210xlt's and a couple of years ago got the Eden Crease syndrome in the 210. Had the drivers reconed for £40 plus tax each. The guy upgraded the spec and they've been fine since. Came to sell my 410 and discovered the same darned problem. Had the other 4 units done. Oddly the guy also said that the cones don't last forever and at about 10yrs old they were overdue.
I personally love their sound so would recommend you go with a Dutch recone!
Also, once fixed try to find another xst to match. Nice rig then!

[BassmanPaul]

Originally Posted by MrLenny1

I have owned that cab for 6 years, pushed it hard any never had any issues.
Must have been defective. Get it reconed, Eden is still very good gear.

But did you push a potential 1KW into it?? I suspect not.