New Head Help - Genz Benz and others content

[Metropolis_488]

So I have been in somewhat of quagmire lately - I had some micro heads, then went back to full on tubes (Mesa 400+ and a Fender Duo Ten Bassman) because I missed the tone, then blew my back out terribly, so now I am going back to the micro thing. The problem is I have not found one I really like. I am really more of a set it and forget it player (having to turn knobs too much bothers me for some reason) and I avoid tweeters. I have owned, in order, the following:

1) NeoPak 3.5 - loved the tone, wanted more headroom
2) Markbass F1 - did not like the "all knobs at 12:00" tone at all - always found myself playing with the knobs, but never really getting rid of this congested mid sound... kind of sounds like a pillow over the speakers to me
3) Shuttle 6.0 - sounds darker than the Neo Pak to my ears, again, alot of knob tweeking but still not getting the tone I want… maybe there is a sonic signature in the class D amps that I don’t like…?
4) Orange Bass Terror – very cool sounding, but I keep sticking my foot out to turn off my overdrive pedal when I realize, “Oh, there is no overdrive pedal – I’m plugged straight into the head.” So it is basically a one-trick-pony. Yes it sounds like an all tube amp, but more of an SVT type of bottom-heavy and wooly, where I want more Bassman/400+ sound that is harmonically rich but clean.

I’m really confused as to why the NeoPak and the Shuttle sounded so different to me. Does anyone have any suggestions out there? Maybe an Eden (Wt 405 or WTX500 or something) would work? I could do the GK clean thing, but have heard that the MB2-500 has terrible reliability and does not sound very GK-like (heard it was boomy in the low end). Considered a walkabout, but am concerned about volume (the NeoPak is rated slightly higher and I wanted more headroom from that).

Help.

(PS – before the search policy attack, I am well aware that there are NUMEROUS threads about this, but that is exactly the problem – I don’t have the time to read through 1,200 posts about “I love my XYZ” just to try and find the one nugget of info I am looking for)

[svtb15]

What cabs are you using and what type of volume do you expect on a gig?

I have tried all those heads.. and i concur.

Im having great success with my Shuttle 9. Just killer! And its only 4 pounds..

I like to set and forget too.. And the DI out is superb....

[Metropolis_488]

Currently using a Bag End S15-D (very efficient cab per specs and my ear) and am having LDS build me a 12/6.5x2 cab to mate with it. I am a rock guy. Volume-wise, I would want to be able to gig a small club/bar without PA support while working with a loud drummer and a rock guitard.

[JimiLL]

Sounds like you would do good with a Mesa M6.

It doesnt weigh 2 lbs (more like 25) but that shouldnt be too much of a hassle. You carry your own bass, right?

[roosterbass]

id give an aguilar ag500 a try

[KJung]

Originally Posted by Metropolis_488

2) Markbass F1 - did not like the "all knobs at 12:00" tone at all - always found myself playing with the knobs, but never really getting rid of this congested mid sound... kind of sounds like a pillow over the speakers to me

This is classic user error. The F1 is flat with all the TONE CONTROLS at noon, and the filters (VLE and VPF) OFF (fully counter clockwise). If you put those filters at noon, it is a muddy mess.

If there is any head that does not sound like a pillow over the speakers, it is the very bright, very punchy F1.

Check out the Youtube clips in my sig link. If you like it 'tight and bright' the F1 kills IMO. However, I wouldn't call it tubey or particularly warm.. it is clean and tight and punchy, which might not be your thing.

If you want kind of a very clean 'bassman' tone, try the LMIII (with the tone controls properly set, and just a touch of VLE.... warm has heck and totally clean, and relatively flat.. no tweaking necessary).


Edit: I also have a clip of the F500 (same thing as the F1) with an LDS 12/6 in my iComposition homepage, that you can access from the link in my profile. That is a BEAUTIFUL combination. I'll find the clip for you and put it in a follow-up post.

[KJung]

Here is that clip... F500 set completely flat (again, same as the F1 when set flat), through a 12/6 LDS cab with a Sadowsky Jazz bass. The LMII/III is a bit deeper in the bass, and a bit warmer in the mids and up top.

http://www.icompositions.com/music/song.php?sid=121557

[Metropolis_488]

Originally Posted by KJung

This is classic user error. The F1 is flat with all the TONE CONTROLS at noon, and the filters (VLE and VPF) OFF (fully counter clockwise). If you put those filters at noon, it is a muddy mess.

If there is any head that does not sound like a pillow over the speakers, it is the very bright, very punchy F1.

Check out the Youtube clips in my sig link. If you like it 'tight and bright' the F1 kills IMO. However, I wouldn't call it tubey or particularly warm.. it is clean and tight and punchy, which might not be your thing.

If you want kind of a very clean 'bassman' tone, try the LMIII (with the tone controls properly set, and just a touch of VLE.... warm has heck and totally clean, and relatively flat.. no tweaking necessary).


Edit: I also have a clip of the F500 (same thing as the F1) with an LDS 12/6 in my iComposition homepage, that you can access from the link in my profile. That is a BEAUTIFUL combination. I'll find the clip for you and put it in a follow-up post.

Hi Ken, thanks for the response.

I knew to turn the VPF and VLE all the way counter-clockwise. I still found the F1 very mid-congested, very burpy. Like the low-mid hump you get from installing (some)Barts in your bass vs fender single coils. Maybe you hear it as low mids - to me it's just thick and undefined for fingerstyle playing.
Maybe to tame it I should have cut some mids - but that just seems so counter-intuitive to what I normally do.

I thought my Bassman TV Duo Ten was MUCH clearer sounding.

I think a big difference is in technique - I don't slap at all, and am going more for that Geddy Lee type of tone. Maybe I just need to give the F1/500 another shot?

[Metropolis_488]

Originally Posted by KJung

Here is that clip... F500 set completely flat (again, same as the F1 when set flat), through a 12/6 LDS cab with a Sadowsky Jazz bass. The LMII/III is a bit deeper in the bass, and a bit warmer in the mids and up top.

http://www.icompositions.com/music/song.php?sid=121557

Cool thanks! Do you have a similar All Flat clip with the LMII?

[KJung]

Originally Posted by Metropolis_488

Hi Ken, thanks for the response.

I knew to turn the VPF and VLE all the way counter-clockwise. I still found the F1 very mid-congested, very burpy. Like the low-mid hump you get from installing (some)Barts in your bass vs fender single coils. Maybe you hear it as low mids - to me it's just thick and undefined for fingerstyle playing.
Maybe to tame it I should have cut some mids - but that just seems so counter-intuitive to what I normally do.

I thought my Bassman TV Duo Ten was MUCH clearer sounding.

I think a big difference is in technique - I don't slap at all, and am going more for that Geddy Lee type of tone. Maybe I just need to give the F1/500 another shot?

No, as long as you had those filters down, then 'it is what it is' and probably just doesn't work for you. I was just thinking you had the filters up, because that amp is bright as the dickens when set flat (I typically roll out a little bit of the upper mids). I would describe it as mid present and burpy if you are coming from a big tube amp.

Again, given how wide and fat the LDS 12/6's are, as you might be able to hear from that iComposition clip posted above, I find that a nice 'yin yang' to the F1 (i.e., tight and bright meats fat and smooth). However, that tone is a bit 'polite' for me personally.

The Genz 9 is getting some nice press (I didn't dig the Shuttle 6 at all... underpowered and thin to my ears, with very limited EQ), so you might try that.

Depending on how tubey you want to get, the Mesa Walkabout is just a stunningly warm amp, and a lot louder than you would think, given its wattage.

Finally, if you are comfortable with that Fender tone stack thing, the Hartke L500 (I think that's what it is called) really sounds, to my ear, like an old Bassman preamp hooked to a solid state, clean power amp. Pretty cool amp for 'old school, clean tube tone.

[Metropolis_488]

Originally Posted by KJung

Here is that clip... F500 set completely flat (again, same as the F1 when set flat), through a 12/6 LDS cab with a Sadowsky Jazz bass. The LMII/III is a bit deeper in the bass, and a bit warmer in the mids and up top.

http://www.icompositions.com/music/song.php?sid=121557

Listened to the clip - sounds nice and growly. Maybe the problem I had with the F1 was the cab - an SWR 12 Pack (2x12, no tweeter). The Bag End S15-D that I am currently using I THINK is a lot brighter (sold the SWR a while back and did not run the same head through each). Also, the Cab that Don is building me should be pretty bright for a tweeterless cab.

Hmmm

[Metropolis_488]

Originally Posted by KJung

Depending on how tubey you want to get, the Mesa Walkabout is just a stunningly warm amp, and a lot louder than you would think, given its wattage.

Really considering the Walkabout, but a little concerned about volume. Like I said, I need to be able to play at least a small club/bar with no PA support with a rock drummer and guitar player.

Originally Posted by KJung

Finally, if you are comfortable with that Fender tone stack thing, the Hartke L500 (I think that's what it is called) really sounds, to my ear, like an old Bassman preamp hooked to a solid state, clean power amp. Pretty cool amp for 'old school, clean tube tone.

I thought about that... but I would really like to stay with the "grab and go" form factor of a Micro.

[KJung]

Originally Posted by Metropolis_488

Listened to the clip - sounds nice and growly. Maybe the problem I had with the F1 was the cab - an SWR 12 Pack (2x12, no tweeter). The Bag End S15-D that I am currently using I THINK is a lot brighter (sold the SWR a while back and did not run the same head through each). Also, the Cab that Don is building me should be pretty bright for a tweeterless cab.

Hmmm

Yeah, IMO, it is hard not to like that tone. Again, a little 'polite' for me personally (the 12/6's are very big and smooth sounding), but it is a beautiful sound.

I'm not familar with that particular SWR cab, but the mix and match can really change things.

I played an S15-D/S15-Dx stack for many years... great little boxes. If you feel like it, there is another clip on my iComposition page of an LDS 115HO cab (one way cab with a 3015 in it). That cab will be a bit more aggressive in the upper mids versus your S15-D, but is probably pretty close to what you can expect (for better or worse) of the F1 and your Bag End. I'll hunt down that clip for you... same bass, same room, same recording set-up... you will hear a lot more grind coming out of the top of that driver versus the very smooth crossed over 6.5 driver of the other cab, and a rounder, tighter low end versus the 'LF' series 12 in the other cab.

K

[KJung]

Here it is. If nothing else, it gives you a feel for the difference between the 112LF/6.5 sound and the more aggressive, grindy 3015 one way tone, with the same head (F500 set flat) and bass (Sadowsky J with single coils).

http://www.icompositions.com/music/song.php?sid=121137

Again, the LMIII will be a bit smoother and warmer.

[KJung]

Originally Posted by Metropolis_488

Really considering the Walkabout, but a little concerned about volume. Like I said, I need to be able to play at least a small club/bar with no PA support with a rock drummer and guitar player.

If they ever made a 500 watt Walkabout, they would sell a bunch of them (I'd buy one in a minute). I bought the MPulse600 a while back thinking (hoping) that is what it was. It was not.

The Walkabout into 4ohms is pretty impressive... I wouldn't totally count it out. PM TBer Chef... he uses an F1 and a Walkabout regularly (and a Mesa M6) and can probably tell you the volume differences and if the Walkabout gives up the ghost too early for your application.

[Metropolis_488]

Thanks Ken! Very Helpful!!

[Metropolis_488]

That 15HO is Really my thing! I think I will give the F1/500 another try.

[KJung]

Originally Posted by Metropolis_488

That 15HO is Really my thing! I think I will give the F1/500 another try.

I kinda figured that would be closer to what you are used to with the Bag End. While my tone goals are a little more modern (as you can hear in the Youtube clips with my AE410), that little 15HO really speaks to me. I'm having one made by LDS! That cab is only about 35 pounds or so also.

Anyway, lots of nice small heads out there now, the Shuttle 9, the F1 or F500, LMIII, the TC electronics stuff (the Classic450 'might' float your boat, but it is darker and woolier than the Shuttle or F1/F500 or LMII).

Anyway, enjoy the search... cool that you can try some of this stuff. Bring your cab next time if you can.

[KJung]

Originally Posted by Metropolis_488

Cool thanks! Do you have a similar All Flat clip with the LMII?

Just saw this post.. unfortunately not with this cab. I do have an LMII/F1 comparison with my AE410 on the youtube channel, but I don't think that cab would float your boat. Might be worth a listen for another data point, but probably too much sizzle and lower treble grind coming out of that cab for your tone goals.

[Metropolis_488]

Originally Posted by KJung

Just saw this post.. unfortunately not with this cab. I do have an LMII/F1 comparison with my AE410 on the youtube channel, but I don't think that cab would float your boat. Might be worth a listen for another data point, but probably too much sizzle and lower treble grind coming out of that cab for your tone goals.

Yeah, I checked out that video... um, yeah...that cab is not for me

But I really do appreciate you posting all those vids and clips. They really help.
-Matt