New member, new bassist, need advice on my tone please

[Soundstorm]

I've been playing guitar for 15 years, converted to bass about 4 months ago and I love it. I find my tone to be "woofy", though, and I'm just so tired of adjusting everything. Pickup height, EQ, string height, etc. I'm VERY much a plug and play guy. I like a good solid tone, nothing extravagant. I really love the bassist (DeLeo) from STP's tone. John Paul Jones, and Dusty Hill's tone as well. All my favorite guys seem to be working with P basses. I'm trying to talk myself out of selling equipment and starting over.

I have:

2001 Bolt-on LTD Warwick Thumb
Mesa M-Pulse 600 head
(loaner) Behringer 4x10


I was planning on replacing the cab soon. It seems like I'm always having to adjust my sub frequencies, cutting 30hz, because like I said the tone seems to be very boomy, and not detailed at all on the low E, at the same time the other strings sound much better. I've tried adjusting the low E's height, pickup height, and even string brands with the same results.

I'm really liking this Mesa amp, but I also need to buy a guitar amp head for another band I'm about to join. I was thinking of building a '68 Marshall Superbass clone. How good does the Superbass sound with bass (sounds like a dumb question, but I've only actually seen people play the guitar through them, much like a Bassman). Ideally, it would be great to have one head to suit both needs, then I could just switch cabinets.

So anyway, if you guys have some suggestions, I'm all ears. Thanks!

[RickenBoogie]

I'd just dump the cab, get a Powerhouse 410, or 212, (or 412!), and call it a day. Run the heads eq relatively flat, too much bass boost will eat your power, and sound crappy in a band mix.

[IvanMike]

superbass worked great - for guitar mostly

bring your amp and bass out and go cab shopping with them.

[Lee Barker]

My guess is this forum will concur that the Behringer is the weak link in the chain.

For a pretty good primer on what the knobs do, check this Marcus Miller clip (and part 2):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Hx-UYcUHQI

Even though it's brand specific, and a preamp, it has some good general knowledge that will get you right up to your 'plug and play' goal.

[Soundstorm]

Thanks for the great suggestions....

I'm running the eq on the amp flat, but with a good sized dip in the 30hz area from the parametric. I'm boosting some HI eq from the bass.

I played a show last weekend and used another guy's cab but with my same setup, it was an Ampeg 6x10. It sounded better, but not WAAAY better. The Behringer sounds suprisingly good. I was looking at the Mesa Powerhouse 1000.

I'll keep messing around with things, but like I said, I like a plug and play amp. I was pro level audio engineer for 8 years, and for some reason I can't stand gear that needs tweaking, LOL. Although I think the Mesa is a good amp. It's got lots of solid tone in there.

****I find between slapping, picking, and fingerstyling the amp's response is so dynamic and dramatically different, it takes a few big EQ adjustments (both bass and amp EQ) to get me back in the right ballpark of a balanced tone.

[ga_edwards]

It could be the bass is wrong for you - like you say, your favourite bass tones are P bass tones, and the Thumb is a very different colour (nothing sounds like a Thumb IMO).

My Thumb has an almost flat sound, so very balanced across the spectrum, from tight lows, detailed growly mids and glassy highs. My Attitude (which is basically a P bass on acid) has beefier low end, a different colour in the mids and more subdued highs.

As such, it could be you're trying to compensate with the amp to dial in a sound that your bass simply doesn't produce, which has the side affect of creating a muddy, wooly low end.

Perhaps try and get your hands on a P bass before spending money elsewhere in the chain.

[Soundstorm]

Originally Posted by ga_edwards

It could be the bass is wrong for you - like you say, your favourite bass tones are P bass tones, and the Thumb is a very different colour (nothing sounds like a Thumb IMO).

My Thumb has an almost flat sound, so very balanced across the spectrum, from tight lows, detailed growly mids and glassy highs. My Attitude (which is basically a P bass on acid) has beefier low end, a different colour in the mids and more subdued highs.

As such, it could be you're trying to compensate with the amp to dial in a sound that your bass simply doesn't produce, which has the side affect of creating a muddy, wooly low end.

Perhaps try and get your hands on a P bass before spending money elsewhere in the chain.

thanks, I think that's the winning suggestion. I'll take my gear to GC (sigh) when I go to grab the Powerhouse 1000 and I'll try some P basses. I really love the tone of the Warwick with a pick, I can nail Justin Chancellor's Tool tone (he used the same amp on Lateralus), but that's not what I'm going for atm, and alas I can't really afford to keep all this great gear.

[Soundstorm]

I find the tone to be exactly that, sort of a woofy and overpowering sub low end. Something in the chain is causing that. I'll post my findings..

[VismundCygnus]

Originally Posted by ga_edwards

It could be the bass is wrong for you - like you say, your favourite bass tones are P bass tones, and the Thumb is a very different colour (nothing sounds like a Thumb IMO).

My Thumb has an almost flat sound, so very balanced across the spectrum, from tight lows, detailed growly mids and glassy highs. My Attitude (which is basically a P bass on acid) has beefier low end, a different colour in the mids and more subdued highs.

As such, it could be you're trying to compensate with the amp to dial in a sound that your bass simply doesn't produce, which has the side affect of creating a muddy, wooly low end.

Perhaps try and get your hands on a P bass before spending money elsewhere in the chain.

This

[johnboy65]

Have you changed strings? Everytime I do, it's like getting a new bass.

The Warwick is a really good overall bass, especially for a (sort of) beginner. It just might not be the bass for you. I'd look into a Precision or Jazz.

Sorry, I'm not sure about the amp!

[whatiswhat]

behringer everything usually blows.

[Soundstorm]

Yep, strings were the first thing I tried, although they didn't have Elixirs in the guage I wanted. I think I just need to make a day of trying out different equipment.

I really love the thumb though. And I'll try hard to keep it because it's got such a unique tone. If I find myself playing in a hard rock or southern metal band I'd kick myself for selling it. Not to mention I got a great deal on it (it's a LTD) and refurbed it myself. Because with a pick, the tone can't be beat (not to mention slap, which I'm not good at yet). I'll see how it all pans out when I go try gear out. He'll, I'm on vacation, I might do it this weekend

[MR PC]

Lots of good suggestions here! The P Bass is a great place to start for instance. I would add that working on your playing technique/tone ***unplugged*** will be very helpful in controlling your amplified sound.

[ga_edwards]

Originally Posted by Soundstorm

Yep, strings were the first thing I tried, although they didn't have Elixirs in the guage I wanted. I think I just need to make a day of trying out different equipment.

I really love the thumb though. And I'll try hard to keep it because it's got such a unique tone. If I find myself playing in a hard rock or southern metal band I'd kick myself for selling it. Not to mention I got a great deal on it (it's a LTD) and refurbed it myself. Because with a pick, the tone can't be beat (not to mention slap, which I'm not good at yet). I'll see how it all pans out when I go try gear out. He'll, I'm on vacation, I might do it this weekend

You are allowed more than one bass you know

[ga_edwards]

Originally Posted by MR PC

Lots of good suggestions here! The P Bass is a great place to start for instance. I would add that working on your playing technique/tone ***unplugged*** will be very helpful in controlling your amplified sound.

I'm not entirely with you on that suggestion. The dynamic range of an amplified bass is a lot greater than unplugged. What sounds like steady, even, balanced playing unplugged may end up sounding all over the place dynamically once amplified.

Also, because of the smaller dynamic range, certain techniques don't always work as well as you think they might once you plug in - tapping for example.

As a side note, I use a fairly healthy dollop of compression to bring my amplified dynamic range in closer to my unplugged tone.

[Soundstorm]

Originally Posted by ga_edwards

I'm not entirely with you on that suggestion. The dynamic range of an amplified bass is a lot greater than unplugged. What sounds like steady, even, balanced playing unplugged may end up sounding all over the place dynamically once amplified.

Also, because of the smaller dynamic range, certain techniques don't always work as well as you think they might once you plug in - tapping for example.

As a side note, I use a fairly healthy dollop of compression to bring my amplified dynamic range in closer to my unplugged tone.

a rackmounted compressor, or even a really good pedal might help when I change between playing styles. The onboard compressor is a complete tonesucker.

I'd love to have more than one bass, btw, but I also need a guitar head and cab, a bass cab, a computer so I can get my studio up and running etc, etc (not to mention a Deluxe USA strat), so the budget is pretty tight. Though I have noticed there are some damn good deals floating around on the classifieds here

[magic papa]

Originally Posted by Soundstorm

2001 Bolt-on LTD Warwick Thumb
Mesa M-Pulse 600 head
(loaner) Behringer 4x10

I play an M-Pulse 600 through Mesa Powerhouse 4x12. Sounds good with Warwick Corvette double buck, sounds OK with P-Bass (no fireworks though), but not so much with Stringray. I put the SansAmp pedal in from of it to inject more character.

I have to say M-Pulse is very difficult yo use, no instant tone. Had it for 2 years and just started to learn how to use it. Great amp, expensive like hell and not quick to set up. Operating the paramteric EQ is a bit of a rocket science to get a good tone.

Also it's rather a HiFi amp, not a modeling one, so it will reproduce pretty much whatever you put through it. If you require modelling I would suggest SansAmp Bass Driver or VT pedal between your bass and the amp. Great combination, you'll feel difference straight away.

Frankly this head wouldn't be my first pick for a beginner bass player, but I guess this advice comes a little too late

Not sure whether Behringer cab really affects the tone that much. Maybe a bit, but IMHO it wouldn't be a defining factor.

Cheers

MP

[Soundstorm]

Originally Posted by magic papa

I play an M-Pulse 600 through Mesa Powerhouse 4x12. Sounds good with Warwick Corvette double buck, sounds OK with P-Bass (no fireworks though), but not so much with Stringray. I put the SansAmp pedal in from of it to inject more character.

I have to say M-Pulse is very difficult yo use, no instant tone. Had it for 2 years and just started to learn how to use it. Great amp, expensive like hell and not quick to set up. Operating the paramteric EQ is a bit of a rocket science to get a good tone.

Also it's rather a HiFi amp, not a modeling one, so it will reproduce pretty much whatever you put through it. If you require modelling I would suggest SansAmp Bass Driver or VT pedal between your bass and the amp. Great combination, you'll feel difference straight away.

Frankly this head wouldn't be my first pick for a beginner bass player, but I guess this advice comes a little too late

Not sure whether Behringer cab really affects the tone that much. Maybe a bit, but IMHO it wouldn't be a defining factor.

Cheers

MP

Thanks! Good to hear from someone with the same setup The amp and EQ is no problem for me. I'm a pro audio engineer of about 8 years now, part of my job is knowing frequencies, and when to boost and when to cut.

The problem is that I'm having to cut, make that nearly REMOVE, 30hz via the parametric from the sound spectrum. That means that's something's not adding up right. So I tried lowering the pickup and/or raising the low E (that's the only one that gets boomy) because a string too close to a pickup will tend to do exactly that, but when I lower it too much I lose string definition, of which there wasn't much on the low E without boosting 2-3k. I'm not a fan of dramatic EQ, in my experience it only leads to problems further down the line in the mix. If everything is set up right, you should get a *usable* tone with everything set FLAT (whether it's good or not is subjective, but it should work within the context of the mix). The tone I'm getting is not usable without some dramatic EQ'ing, which to me is notching out 30hz as far as the parametric will take it.

[magic papa]

Originally Posted by Soundstorm

I'm a pro audio engineer of about 8 years now, part of my job is knowing frequencies, and when to boost and when to cut.

Lucky you, I have to learn everything the hard way

M-Pulse's EQ is tricky for me, bordering useless
I only use it for the following:

1. High-pass filter at ~35Hz (I tune 1/2 step down) to tighten the sound. I cut all the way through which is -15dB. That gets rid of a lot of rumble which otherwise is present. This amp can produce and unbelievable amount of thunder (esp through the 4x12 cab) which I don't particularly like. Sounds like you may have the same issue.

2. For a scooped sound I set the freq knob to around 380Hz and cut that quite a bit. That was the only modelling function of the EQ that I found worthwhile.

All the other knobs I found largely useless. The preamp tone controls are funny too. Bass is OK, can add a lot of bass, but makes the sound really boomy even after subtle adjustment. I run it flat. Mid and treble are quite useless, run them flat too Sorry Mesa.

I take the point that I may not be using those things properly, but in my defence I have no huge problem dialling a decent tone on other amps and/or preamps. So I don't quite understand why this one should be so hard.

I think it would be the best to use this amp more as a PA rather than a bass amp. The tone controls are only effective for minor corrections. You have to pump the right tone into it. If you need to sculpt your own one than I again recommend some pedals.

Warwick is actually the only bass that sounds good through this head set all flat probably because it has two pickups and hence lots of gain in all frequencies (it's an active bass too). The otherwise awesome Stingray is really tinny/flat or rumbly/farty if you try to correct it. I couldn't believe it in the first place, thought there was something wrong with the head.

It's kinda impossible to describe the sound in words, but I was trying to get the bright sound that with hard attack goes:

Bdong, Bdong

and all I could get was:

Hmmm, rmmmm, brrrrmmmmm

Hope you get the picture It all came to life with the Bass Drive pedal though. Perhaps the equivalent of the 'Presence' knob is missing in M-Pulse.

The head sounds a bit tighter and brighter with a 4x10 MarkBass cab than with the 4x12 Mesa one. Also seems to be much louder (?) despite both having the same impedance. Looks like Mesa cabs are less sensistive.

Either way I didn't find the cab to make huge difference, so I think your Behringher may not be the culprit either.

To finish on the positive note - I've never heard a bass head being so clean and HiFi. Actually this is why I bought it in the first place - superbly clean. It sounds quite glassy too because of the tube preamp. So it is a great amp, but it is not a good all-rounder and needs to be acompannied by something that gives the sound more character.

PS. If you find any interesting EQ settings please let me know. I'm out of ideas otherwise

[MR PC]

Originally Posted by ga_edwards

I'm not entirely with you on that suggestion. The dynamic range of an amplified bass is a lot greater than unplugged. What sounds like steady, even, balanced playing unplugged may end up sounding all over the place dynamically once amplified.

Also, because of the smaller dynamic range, certain techniques don't always work as well as you think they might once you plug in - tapping for example.

As a side note, I use a fairly healthy dollop of compression to bring my amplified dynamic range in closer to my unplugged tone.

Well, I hear that, I understand what you are saying. But I think if one takes the time to really listen and analyze the acoustic tone of your instrument, you stand a better chance to know what to do with your sound when you plug in. And as far as techniques that won't work so well plugged in, that's true, but I think that is a matter of understanding the functionality of all the working parts of the instrument.