New Speakon Cables - what gives?

[esa372]

OK - so, I've got an Eden WT800 head driving two 4-ohm cabs. I have been using 1/4" speaker cables since the world was young, and have been using four-foot "Monster Prolink Performer 500 Ultra-Wide" cables since I got the WT800; never had any issues.

But now, everyone is moving to these new-fangled "speakon" doohickies. I even read this in the Eden manual:

Standard 1/4 inch plugs are less than ideal in their ability to transfer the signal from your amplifier. This is due to the limited amount of actual contact area in these connections. For best performance, we recommend using "banana" plugs to connect to the five-way binding posts. We also recommend using high-quality speaker cables of at least 16 gauge.

So, I do some research and begin to think it might be a good idea to make the switch. But since the amp does not have speakon connections, and the cabs do, I contacted Pro Cables N Sound about making two four-foot, 12-gauge cables with bananas on one end and speakons on the other. Todd, at PCNS, explained to me that "a banana connection will carry more power than a 1/4", and a speakon will carry more power than both". (Todd is a great guy; wonderful to work with.)

Today, my fancy new cables arrived (they look fantastic!), and (of course) I plugged them in right away to test them out. What's got me puzzled is they don't sound or feel any better than the old Monster cables. In fact, at first listen, they sounded markedly thinner - less low end. So, I plug in the old Monsters - ah, there's the sound.

After a while of this back-and-forth cabling, and futzing with the gain, EQ, compression, and power levels, I must admit that I could not hear any difference at all. My ears must've dried up.

So, Wot's... Uh, The Deal? Should I not expect to hear (or sense) any difference? I thought that the "improved ability to transfer power from the amplifier" would result in some kind of identifiable difference. Why would the new cables seem to attenuate the low frequencies?

Any ideas?




Thanks!

~esa

[gregbackstrom]

It sounds like the polarity is wrong with one of the cables. Try switching one of the banana cables (red into black and black into red) and see if your missing bass comes back. Be sure to turn off the amp first.

[billfitzmaurice]

Originally Posted by esa372

Should I not expect to hear (or sense) any difference? I thought that the "improved ability to transfer power from the amplifier" would result in some kind of identifiable difference.

It will not be audible. The advantage is in lessened current draw on the amp. The assumption that it would be audible is what allows the cable shysters to command outrageous prices, and get it, but the truth of the matter where speaker cables is concerned is that there are only two kinds, those that work properly and those that are defective.

Why would the new cables seem to attenuate the low frequencies?

They can't. But having one of the cabs reverse polarity would, and with bananas that's always a possibility. There's also the possibility that one of the Speakons was wired with reverse polarity.

[Jeff Scott]

Originally Posted by esa372

OK - so, ....these new-fangled "speakon" doohickies..

~esa

New? IIRC, they have been around since the early '90s, perhaps even earlier!

Welcome to the latter part of the 20th century.

[esa372]

Originally Posted by gregbackstrom

Try switching one of the banana cables (red into black and black into red) and see if your missing bass comes back.

Forgive my electronic ignorance, but wouldn't switching polarity end with "BOOM"?

Originally Posted by billfitzmaurice

It will not be audible. The advantage is in lessened current draw on the amp. The assumption that it would be audible is what allows the cable shysters to command outrageous prices, and get it, but the truth of the matter where speaker cables is concerned is that there are only two kinds, those that work properly and those that are defective.

I see; thanks for the info.

Originally Posted by Jeff Scott

Welcome to the latter part of the 20th century.

Thanks! It's a weird and fascinating time!

[Let It Fall]

Originally Posted by esa372

Forgive my electronic ignorance, but wouldn't switching polarity end with "BOOM"?

No, it just makes the speaker move opposite of what it should.

constant positive to one terminal and negative to the other will make the speaker poke out or in [and stay there] the way a speaker works is the amp switches polarity back and forth to make the speaker move in and out. Higher notes switch quicker, lower notes switch slower. If you have it hooked up backwards you will notice a loss in low end as the speaker will retract when it is suposed to extend.

[SUBass]

There are a couple of statements in here that I do not agree with or think need some clarification.

First I want to tackle polarity...

If you have it hooked up backwards you will notice a loss in low end as the speaker will retract when it is suposed to extend.

This isn't exactly correct.

If you have two speakers next to one another...(either two cabs, or two speakers in the same cab) and one speaker is out-of-polarity with the other...Then there will be a major reduction in bass.

If you have one speaker (or cabinet which has all speakers wired in proper polarity) changing the polarity of the signal reaching the speaker won't have much affect.

Generally speaking...Flipping polarity on your bass guitar signal isn't going to change the apparently volume or timbre of your instrument. There are some exceptions but they are few and far.

The advantage is in lessened current draw on the amp.

I don't agree with that either...It's not that the 1/4" connector "eats" more current than the Speak-on. (any connector that consumes signal that traverses it is a BAD connector.) I think what might be a more technically correct explanation for what Bill is saying is that the contact resistance of a Speak-on is less than that of 1/4" connector. Even still though...We're talking milliohm resistances. The biggest advantage to Speak-on is that it's capable of delivering MUCH more power. Go look up the power specs for the top-of-the-line Switchcraft 1/4" plug and then compare that to the power transmission capabilities of a Speak-on. Prior to Speak-on people were sometimes using high-current XLR but mostly heavy-duty banana plugs.

There are a couple of other advantages to Speak-on as well. For instance, 1/4" connectors often short before they make proper contact. Speak-ons do not. Speak-ons also twist and lock into place to prevent accidental removal.

The assumption that it would be audible is what allows the cable shysters to command outrageous prices, and get it, but the truth of the matter where speaker cables is concerned is that there are only two kinds, those that work properly and those that are defective.

I agree with this sentiment to an extent. I would make sure you use quality cable here. In my experience and opinion, standard wire/zip-cord used as a speaker cable doesn't sound as good as "rope-lay" constructed wire. I know there are many people who say wire and is wire and the only wire that sounds bad is the wire that's broken...But I disagree. I'm not a fanatic about cables...But I've used enough different stuff to have an opinion about it.

For my rig...I use Mogami 3103 cable to Speak-on connectors. (Granted...The crap that is inside the cab is pretty lame in comparison.)

James

[craig.p]

Couple of points here.

1. Improperly-conducted A/B testing can fool you into hearing all kinds of stuff that isn't really there. Always? No. Sometimes? Definitely.

2. A jack that hasn't been used in a long time, or ever, can crud up, either with dirt or oxidation or even mold in high-humidity environments. Sometimes it helps to plug/unplug a connector several times before considering it "good to go." Or clean the contacts if you can get to them.

[Woodsglen]

Your mind is messing with you I think.... but you never know..

Even if you reverse the black and red pins, all you are doing is reversing the "Relative Phase" of your cabinet. If you have one cabinet hooked to this one cabinet, and audible effect are going to be hard to hear...

Now if you have another cabinet and you did not reverse that cable ( or it was wired backwards)... then bingo.. you are going to have phase cancellation and your bass response will be cut in half.

This is why its good to have a meter around.. Handiest think you will ever own once you learn how to use it. ( buy DIGITAL ).. for the cost difference of an analog meter, its not worth the hassle!

I'm gonna go with the post about oxidation inside the binding post that has never been used. a little WD 40 on a little bristle brush works great. ( go to Walmart and buy a bore cleaning brush for a 22 Cal. rifle. its a little bristle brush ( like a bottle washing brush except Very Small) Twist that around in there.. and it will clean them for sure.


You might want to read up on doing a speaker polarity test with a dc voltage source..

like a nine volt battery.

hook + of your nine volt battery to + lead of your speaker cable (hooked to your cabinet) and all of your speaker cones should jump right out at you...

Having a digital volt meter never hurts either.

Buying the latest oxygen free hyper active molecular aligned copper cable is not going to amount to a hill of beans compared to no.12 stranded copper from any electrical supply house. Maybe at 100 feet at full rated power with a full load (speakers maxed out) you would be able to see differences on a scope - but your ears... probably not. We can't detect changes that small.

So you can spend all the money you want on monster cable and will it give you better performance than Belden, Alpha, or any other major manufacturer?

Audibly - probably not. Monster makes people feel good though. ( and it does come pre-made!)

WOW.. that reminds me.. I need to order an 8 foot monster power cable for my amp. If you haven't seen it.. here it is.. only 100 bucks!

$100 new from 5 sellers
PL300 PRO-8: Ultimate AC Power Performance for Audiophile Components Your Monster Power system is only as strong as the weakest link in your electronics chain. This 8ft. detachable power cord, the PowerLine 300, provides you with maximum current transfer, maximum conductivity, and offers a high performance solution to connect your components to Monster PowerCenters. High-performance hookup for high-powered A/V components equipped with IEC power connections. Multi-bundled wire technology with large-gauge conductors for maximum current transfer.

How's that for marketing HYPE!
Absolutely F**&^&^ Amazing!

and yes... Speakon connectors have been around.... well... a heck of a long time..

[esa372]

Originally Posted by Let It Fall

No, it just makes the speaker move opposite of what it should.

Thanks.

Originally Posted by SUBass

If you have two speakers next to one another...(either two cabs, or two speakers in the same cab) and one speaker is out-of-polarity with the other...Then there will be a major reduction in bass.

If you have one speaker (or cabinet which has all speakers wired in proper polarity) changing the polarity of the signal reaching the speaker won't have much affect.

Understood.

Originally Posted by SUBass

The biggest advantage to Speak-on is that it's capable of delivering MUCH more power.

But, are the cabs actually receiving and using any more power (than with the 1/4")?

Originally Posted by craig.p

Improperly-conducted A/B testing can fool you into hearing all kinds of stuff that isn't really there.

True - but, initially, it wasn't an A/B test; I just plugged in the new cables, and the loss of low end seemed obvious. I will fire the rig up later today, and listen again.

Originally Posted by craig.p

Sometimes it helps to plug/unplug a connector several times before considering it "good to go." Or clean the contacts if you can get to them.

Good suggestion, but the contacts are certainly clean.

Originally Posted by Woodsglen

Your mind is messing with you I think...

It wouldn't be the first time.

Originally Posted by Woodsglen

You might want to read up on doing a speaker polarity test with a dc voltage source...

Thanks; I will.

Originally Posted by Woodsglen

So you can spend all the money you want on monster cable...

The new Banana/Speakon cables are not Monster; the old 1/4" cables are.



Thanks for all of the info, everyone - I really appreciate it!
I'm going to test the cables out again today, and *really* test them at Monday's rehearsal.


~esa

[rhopper]

Speakon cables offer a much more secure connection (they lock in place) and offer a little bit more voltage protection due to the design. Plastic and rubber is a bit safer than bare metal on a jack if someone was to unwisely mess with it while the the amp was on.

[Jeff Scott]

Originally Posted by SUBass

Generally speaking...Flipping polarity on your bass guitar signal isn't going to change the apparently volume or timbre of your instrument. There are some exceptions but they are few and far.

James

Interestingly, I do hear a difference in my tone when flipping the ø switch on my Universal Audio LA-610; the bottom end fills out some in the -ø setting. I have tried this with several different brands and types of basses with the same effect.

[billfitzmaurice]

Originally Posted by esa372

But, are the cabs actually receiving and using any more power (than with the 1/4")?

Probably. But as much as a 30% increase is totally inaudible. Even a doubling of power is only moderately audible.

[gregbackstrom]

Originally Posted by esa372

Forgive my electronic ignorance, but wouldn't switching polarity end with "BOOM"?

Sorry! My explanation was short because I was typing it on a hand-held.

If one of your speaker cabinets is out-of-phase with the other, it will result in dramatically lower bass output. That's what happens when ONE of your two speaker cables is either wired backwards or---in the case of banana plugs---inserted backwards.

Testing/fixing this is super-easy! Turn off your amp, reverse the bananas on ONLY ONE of your amp outputs, then turn on the amp and see if you have more bass or less bass. The cable position that gives you the most bass is the "in-phase" position.

You won't hurt anything doing this -- just remember to turn off your amp before changing your cables.

OTOH, if the SpeakOns sound the SAME as the quarter-inch cables, that's probably normal. I don't notice an audible difference between mine. The SpeakOns are much more secure and they safeguard the amp from plug-induced shorts, mechanical jack failure, etc.

Hope this helps!

Greg

[onlyclave]

Originally Posted by Jeff Scott

Interestingly, I do hear a difference in my tone when flipping the ø switch on my Universal Audio LA-610; the bottom end fills out some in the -ø setting. I have tried this with several different brands and types of basses with the same effect.

Yes. Absolute polarity is very important. Say the word "Popcorn" normally and then say it by inhaling. Notice the difference? If initial impulse of the speaker moving forward sounds different than the speaker moving backward then change the polarity of your banana plugs to the one that sounds best.

[esa372]

Update:

The problem was solved in a rather unorthodox way: I had my amp tech install NL4 outputs in my WT800.




Then, I simply replaced the banana ends with the Speakon ends.



The rig sounds really great; I'm a happy man.

[Bob Lee (QSC)]

Originally Posted by onlyclave

Yes. Absolute polarity is very important. Say the word "Popcorn" normally and then say it by inhaling. Notice the difference? If initial impulse of the speaker moving forward sounds different than the speaker moving backward then change the polarity of your banana plugs to the one that sounds best.

LOL

[Selta]

I just like Speakons cos they can't be inadvertently pulled out. Somehow in the past I've had it happen where my head gets unplugged from my cab midset. With an SVT especially, this is not happy times. Speakons lock in, yay. Oh, and not to mention that the connectors and conducts are just of nicer design and quality.

[Munjibunga]

There won't be any perceptible difference in sound, as others have said. But you know that by now.

[NoGraveConcern]

Originally Posted by SUBass

In my experience and opinion, standard wire/zip-cord used as a speaker cable doesn't sound as good as "rope-lay" constructed wire.

...

For my rig...I use Mogami 3103 cable to Speak-on connectors. (Granted...The crap that is inside the cab is pretty lame in comparison.)

James

You just debunked yourself as you obviously have an idea what wiring lies inside your cabinet. Lamp cord, in case anyone had doubts, and probably 18ga or less and unequal lengths for cabs with multiple drivers. How anyone can perceive a difference in wire quality from the short stretch between an amp and a cab is truly phantasmagory.