Newbie needs serious advice

hamhockpunk · #1 07-06-2011, 07:57 PM

New to the forum and in need of real and frank advice. I have been watching you all for years outside and I know that seems creepy, but I have a real problem and I though now is the time to get involved. Here is the problem:
I play in a very loud band. We have two drummer that beat the their drums into submission, a guitar player, a keyboard player, and an additional bass player. I carry the low end of things. I generally go for a dub/psych/dirgy sound. I'm a minimalist, but I enjoy a good run every once in a while. The point is that because our band requires so much volume it is hard to keep a sub-bass sound at that volume with out pushing a lot of wattage. I have tried so many different setups it would make your head spin. Yet, I always seem to blow just about everything up. Amps and cabs crumble under my demands. Well, I'm now a full time student working a full time job. On top of that I own a home. I don't have the funds I once had. Plus I'm spreading my wings and require a rig that is diverse. I have been playing in a math rock band that requires more mid-bass sound then my other band. I guess I need to get to the point. I'm about to enter my last year of undergrad and that will be followed by grad school. This means I will have less money then I currently have. I need to set up a rig that is diverse and powerful, but will not break the bank and will keep up with the noise generated by five other guys competing for air to move in a room. What do you all suggest? I prefer bunt and solid advice. Thanks for your time.

My current setup:
Fender Precision Bass with EMG pickups
EH Big Muff (early green tank reissue)
BBE BMAX Preamp
Crown XLS802
Fender BXR115 (Loaded w/ Kappa Pro LF)
Sunn BH 115

Have at it...

PastorofMuppets · #2 07-06-2011, 08:24 PM

PA systems are designed to carry volume.
that much stage volume can only mean your band is immature and likely sound horrible. blunt enough.

hamhockpunk · #3 07-06-2011, 08:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PastorofMuppets

PA systems are designed to carry volume.
that much stage volume can only mean your band is immature and likely sound horrible. blunt enough.

That is a pretty cute reply. Sounds like opinion and not advice. But, thanks for stroking your ego.

PastorofMuppets · #4 07-06-2011, 08:43 PM

Hey Punk,

I gave you what you asked for.
I didnt say you suck or that you dont have a good thing possibly going, but
volume wars are pointless and wars to move air are also pointless, but hey thanks for stroking my ego.

bolophonic · #5 07-06-2011, 08:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hamhockpunk

That is a pretty cute reply. Sounds like opinion and not advice. But, thanks for stroking your ego.

You are off to a great start.

hamhockpunk · #6 07-06-2011, 08:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PastorofMuppets

Hey Punk,

I gave you what you asked for.
I didnt say you suck or that you dont have a good thing possibly going, but
volume wars are pointless and wars to move air are also pointless, but hey thanks for stroking my ego.

I asked for advice. You gave me opinion. Your inability to know when to quit tells me that your a bass player that plays to much. If you have any "advice" then that would be nice. However, if you want to keep playing this game then game on.

markkoelsch · #7 07-06-2011, 08:57 PM

First of all, I think you have enough power amp. In reality, I think your issue is speaker/cab related. Pushing that amount of power you need not only good speakers, but proper cabinets.

Specifically, I would look into more speakers/cone area. I would ditch the Fender cab, and build a proper cabinet for the 15". Perhaps you might be a candidate for a 15" Fearful or even a Fearb cabinet. These would give you a lot of lows, and still be versatile enough to achieve your tonal flexability goals. You could also go with two of the Avatar TB153 cabs.

Another option would be to get say two 4x10 cabs. The Peavey 410TX cabs sound pretty good, and can usually be found pretty cheaply used. Two of those, with the tweeters turned way down should get pretty thumpy, and trust me...they handle power well. I have been running mine with a bridged Crown Powerbase 2 into a single cab.

Another point. Try to get you guys to play quieter. It usually will make the band sound better as you can actually intelligbly/clearly hear what you and the rest of the band are playing. Louder does not equal better.

One other point. If you are going to be this loud invest in some good ear plugs so you do not really damage your hearing.

berwick63 · #8 07-06-2011, 09:05 PM

His opinion is pretty correct. Low stage volume with the PA pumping the sound is a pretty ideal set up. You're never gonna get a rig big enough to compete because everyone else will play louder too, thats how volume wars go. my band deals with it all the time due to the lack of a PA.

He's not trying to rub you the wrong way man, he's trying to give advice. His advice is to get the band to pony up some cash and buy a proper set up than to have everything on stage blasting so nobody can hear anything.

What the guy you're arguing with is trying to do is give advice, and you're taking it the wrong way. I don't know of a rig capable of competing in volume wars, I personally hate the constant struggle between is this loud enough or can this be heard. A PA, In my opinion, solves that issue by giving a mix to everyone in the crowd, and making your amp a monitor, more or less. Lower stage volumes produce better results. Once again, this is my opinion, which you're apparently not looking for, only "advice". It's not exactly "polite" to come into a place you just joined and start off by getting into it with someone who's been a member since '06. I think you're getting off on the wrong foot. This is a place thats supposed to be helpful, not a place where you avoid a thread because theres drama going on.

hamhockpunk · #9 07-06-2011, 09:10 PM

Thanks man! That was what I was looking for!
I have been thinking of getting rid of the Fender for awhile now. I got it because it was cheap and I needed a cab. Problem is I have had to send the Crown (brought new less then a year ago) to get service because I have had issues with it shutting off. I'm not clipping the amp. I checked the ohm load of both cabs and they are reading around 8 ohms each. I have, however, thought about getting a 4x10 again. I found a Peavey 410TX recently for 40 bucks unloaded. Seems a little steep since it will cost about 150-200 dollars to load it with the appropriate speakers. I guess the real problem is I have been getting gear out of necessity rather then purchasing gear that I really want, because most of it is out of my price range. I'm re-evaluating that M.O. and looking at this as more of an investment. I just don't have the money to try out every possible bass rig config. I need something functional, but not every place I play has sound support.

Mousekillaz · #10 07-06-2011, 09:12 PM

Well I don't know exactly what your needs or budget are,but lets stick to basics. 1st you can never have to much power. Purchase the most powerful amp you can afford that also happens to sound good. 2nd versatility is always a good. Choose speakers to fit the situations and complement each other when paired. A typical set up is a 4x10 + 1x15 maybe you could look at a 2x12 + 1x18 or some for massive bottom end maybe 4x12 + 2x18 It is a absolute fact that to move the massive amounts of air required to make the lowest notes really loud, you need A LOT of driver surface area.So its all a question of budget really and how big your vehicle is. Since your running a pre-amp + amp set up, your options are very extensive. You could add a x-over and a second amp to drive a super sub-amp for (18's?) and use your Crown to drivemid bass 10's or 12's. or to push 4 x 4ohm 15's...you have many, many options.
BUT as some have already stated, all this comes down to what is really needed, not just fantasy land fairy tales.
When I played the club circuit many moons ago, I used a very robust Lab Series L4 (200watt @ 8ohm) though 2 paralleled 8ohm JBL E140's. in the L.S. cabinet the size a Honda Civic. I could always hear myself and rarely needed to go through the PA, excepting auditorium gigs. I also spent 17+ years building insane car stereo systems (MECP 1st class certified installer), for bass freaks. I have real working knowledge of this topic.
Bottom line is like the old school drag racers would say, "speed costs money, how fast can you afford to go?"

allexcosta · #11 07-06-2011, 09:14 PM

Hmmm... Let me think here...

Two VERY loud drummers...

Two bassists...

You carry the sub-sonic lows...

Man, you need power, oh yeah, lots of it...

I would look into 3000W and something like 8 15's or some 18's...

I'm dead serious, buddy. I know how these drummers are. They WON'T play any quieter...

I see your budget isn't too high, so look into those old/heavy power amps and perhaps a LAB sub plus some sort of pre-historic Peavey speaker. You can find these all day on CL for dirty cheap...

And, last but not least, I hope you know that by the age 40 you'll be almost deaf...

Good luck, man. You'll need it...

hamhockpunk · #12 07-06-2011, 09:19 PM

I hope you guys don't think I haven't been using ear plugs. Did I just walk into a VFW?

VitalSigns · #13 07-06-2011, 09:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by berwick63

my opinion, which you're apparently not looking for, only "advice". It's not exactly "polite" to come into a place you just joined and start off by getting into it with someone who's been a member since '06. I think you're getting off on the wrong foot. This is a place thats supposed to be helpful, not a place where you avoid a thread because theres drama going on.

^This...

hamhockpunk · #14 07-06-2011, 09:20 PM

Jesus...seriously!

nickbass79 · #15 07-06-2011, 09:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by berwick63

His opinion is pretty correct. Low stage volume with the PA pumping the sound is a pretty ideal set up. You're never gonna get a rig big enough to compete because everyone else will play louder too, thats how volume wars go. my band deals with it all the time due to the lack of a PA.

I agree, getting a PA and avoiding the volume wars will help your problem. It will not only make your band sound better(balanced) to the crowd, but the band will be able to hear everyone else in the band as well.

Think about trying to get a good balance of volume specifically for the crowd. The drums will cut through, the guitar will cut through and the rest will be louder on stage to even up things out front. This means on stage, the guitarist won't be able to hear himself very well, you won't be able to hear the guitarist...etc...and around we go with the rest of the ensemble.

Sounds like you have a pretty big ensemble, so splitting the cost of buying or renting a PA won't sting as much. I have been through this when I was younger. Hope you figure it out.

As for cabs, I would go for a 2x15 and a 4x10. Should give enough punch, subs and versatility for any solo work you want to do

hamhockpunk · #16 07-06-2011, 09:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nickbass79

I agree, getting a PA and avoiding the volume wars will help your problem. It will not only make your band sound better to the crowd, but the band will be able to hear everyone else in the band as well.

Think about trying to get a good balance of volume specifically for the crowd. The drums will cut through, the guitar will cut through and the rest will be louder on stage to even up things out front. This means on stage, the guitarist won't be able to hear himself very well, you won't be able to hear the guitarist...etc...and around we go with the rest of the ensemble.

Sounds like you have a pretty big ensemble, so splitting the cost of buying or renting a PA won't sting as much. I have been through this when I was younger. Hope you figure it out.

Thanks Nick!

allexcosta · #17 07-06-2011, 09:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hamhockpunk

I hope you guys don't think I haven't been using ear plugs. Did I just walk into a VFW?

Still...

hamhockpunk · #18 07-06-2011, 09:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by allexcosta

Still...

Alright guys! I see I stirred the coop here. I thought I would get some advice, but I can see by "insulting" a member of five years that I can't get anything done here. This was a bad decision. Carry on singing kumbaya. Those that gave me advice...thanks.

hamhockpunk · #19 07-06-2011, 09:47 PM

Beam me outta here Scotty!!!!

allexcosta · #20 07-06-2011, 09:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hamhockpunk

Alright guys! I see I stirred the coop here. I thought I would get some advice, but I can see by "insulting" a member of five years that I can't get anything done here. This was a bad decision. Carry on singing kumbaya. Those that gave me advice...thanks.

Hey, poor me... I gave you good advice... Lots of power and be careful. What have I done wrong?