Non-fearful 3-way 12/6/1

[kringle77]

Im going to have LDS build me either a pair of 12/6/1 cabs or one 1212/66/1 cab. The woofer would be a Beyma 12g40, the mid would be a B&C 6ndm44 and the tweet a P-Audio pht410. I've done quite a bit of research and think these are good choices. Im not looking for a fearful cab(not looking for any debate on them, I've played several now and there are things that I like and things that I don't). I use a Fdeck HP filter to roll off lows at 100hz 12db. So here are the questions.


1)Would these drivers be a good compliment to each other?
2)Could I still use one of greenboys x-overs or should ralph build something custom?
3)Would there be any drawbacks to this configuration?

Again, Im not looking for a big debate, Just wondering if anyone has used these drivers in combination or seperate. Thanks.

[DukeLeJeune]

I like the Beyma woofer and B&C mid both very much. The PHT410 is a narrow-pattern horn, more narrow that I go for personally. That is my only reservation.

Definitely have Ralf design you a crossover if it's remotely within your budget. A crossover should be specific to the drivers and application if good sound is your goal. Let Ralf know what your tone goals are.

[kringle77]

Duke, I was at Lomo's house a few days ago and got to play one of your TC cabs. That is the best sounding 2-way I have ever heard. Period. It sounds exactly how I thought it would/should. That never happens! We both prefered it with the ports in.

Are there any tweets to handle 5-6khz and up that you like? Someone on here said that they like conical tweets because they can hear them better when close to the cab. I think the bergantino uses the P-audio. I could be wrong though. Thanks!

[dhomer]

Last night I modeled those woofers in a 2-12. It appears you are specifically not looking for a lot of bottom end, and these should fill your requirements.. A 4.8 cu.ft. box w/the correct tuning shows a pretty flat line between 50-100 Hz, just about 2dB down.. Can drive'em to 400 watts w/out displacement limitation, and will be plenty loud.. Good luck w/your build...

[kringle77]

Thanks so much for the input!

[kringle77]

I've noticed that all of these super woofers with large x-max being used really don't suit me. I've heard them in different cabs and tunings but, none of them have had the same punch as say a 4x10 with drivers only having an x-max of around 4. Im going to assume that this is because they are not reproducing the real sub low end. That makes them "sound" quicker and Im ok with that. Im thinking that the beyma 1240g would be somewhere in the middle. The fearful type cabs don't have that same low mid thump that I hear when plugging into almost any 4x10. You can eq all you want but it still doesn't sound as good to me. Sure, it's even and honest sounding, very clear, but it doesn't feel good to me or have the punch that works so well for me in a mix. I also think the 18sound driver is too harsh, like the sound is coming from a ceramic dinner plater instead of a paper cone. I think that most guys are using them because they can keep up with the woofers efficiency wise. Thats why Im going with a mid with more of a voicing. I actually prefer the sound of the eminence sealed back 6.5 to the 18sound as long as there is a little bit of tweet blended in. The B&C should rememedy that. I don't expect a response to these statements, I just wanted to say what several players have mentioned them to me and I agree. I probably would be the happiest with a 4x10 cab and a mid/tweet top box.

[rpsands]

Harmonic distortion.
Barefaced Bass - Why going Barefaced may require a tonal rethink

[kringle77]

Rp, thats a good read and I totally agree. The fearful cabs are way to clean for me. I don't want a mess but I do like alittle grind in the sound.

[kringle77]

I guess that a useful question would be "If Im using high quality, high output drivers, how can I get some desirable distortions without using pedals?" How would you get a bit of growl out of a 3012lf for example?

[rpsands]

I like pedals myself.

Without pedals, I'd ask whether you have a passive or active bass -- there are ways to achieve some of the sound with aggressive bass setup (for passive basses) or eq'ing for active basses.

You can also use an amp that has it built in, e.g. any GK amp with a boost knob. Note: I find the boost to sound frigging awesome on the 15/6. The reason I use the VT deluxe instead is because I need three tones and it does all three I need pretty well.

[Sundogue]

Originally Posted by kringle77

Rp, thats a good read and I totally agree. The fearful cabs are way to clean for me. I don't want a mess but I do like alittle grind in the sound.

They are what you want them to be. They are designed to put out what you put into them.

I can do vintage, clean, growly, whatever I want with mine. Don't confuse the words "clean" or "clarity" with bright, sterile or thin sounding. The clarity I, and others, refer to just means that "your" sound can be heard everywhere...not just standing in front of it. You can hear ALL the content of whatever tone it is you are after.

It's just a matter of dialing it in.

[rpsands]

Originally Posted by Sundogue

They are what you want them to be. They are designed to put out what you put into them.

I can do vintage, clean, growly, whatever I want with mine. Don't confuse the words "clean" or "clarity" with bright, sterile or thin sounding. The clarity I, and others, refer to just means that "your" sound can be heard everywhere...not just standing in front of it. You can hear ALL the content of whatever tone it is you are after.

It's just a matter of dialing it in.

"Dialing in" a pleasing amount of harmonic distortion is not as easy as it sounds.

[kringle77]

That maxxbass 107 rackmount looks very interesting. I may have to get one of those and run it with a fearful type cab.

[Sundogue]

Originally Posted by rpsands

"Dialing in" a pleasing amount of harmonic distortion is not as easy as it sounds.

Depends on what amp/effects one has at their disposal of course.

[Passinwind]

Originally Posted by kringle77

I guess that a useful question would be "If Im using high quality, high output drivers, how can I get some desirable distortions without using pedals?" How would you get a bit of growl out of a 3012lf for example?

I went through this exercise back before there even were fEARfuls. Here are a few ideas:

*Use a smaller than "optimal" box to encourage a low bass hump and tune the port low to get closer to a sealed box response. I used a TL606 box and tuned to 39Hz with a 3015LF.

* Only use a first order low pass on the woofer. Whether that particular distortion will suit you, I can't say. I liked it though.

*Cross to the mid driver higher, again using a fairly low order high pass. I didn't dig first order, but second was OK.

*Try other mid drivers. I like the B&C 6MD38 a lot, but bear in mind that I typically cross to a tweeter by 3KHz or so.

All of that said, if you like the sound of 4 X10s don't bother trying to make something else sound like one.

Just IME and IMHO.

[kringle77]

Thanks for the tips! Im going to be trying out a maxxbass 107 before I have to settle on a design so, who knows. Good tip on the 1st order low pass.

[Passinwind]

Originally Posted by kringle77

Thanks for the tips! Im going to be trying out a maxxbass 107 before I have to settle on a design so, who knows. Good tip on the 1st order low pass.

Forgot to mention: if at all possible, try to use a DSP based crossover and multi-amping before you settle on the passive design.

The Maxxbass is inherently a distortion device, so it probably makes sense to try it given what you're looking for.

[R Baer]

Originally Posted by Passinwind

...All of that said, if you like the sound of 4 X10s don't bother trying to make something else sound like one.

Just IME and IMHO.

+1 to that. Use what works!

[Stumbo]

Originally Posted by kringle77

Im going to have LDS build me either a pair of 12/6/1 cabs or one 1212/66/1 cab.

You might want to check LoPhatCabinets.com | About Our Cabinets.

[kringle77]

Well, I love the sound of most 4x10 cab but prefer the dispersion of the 3-ways.