non-traditional gear opinions

basscooker · #1 11-09-2011, 09:56 AM

so iwas reading the post about rack vs. head and thought i'd seek opinions about my silly tone trick. i used a carver c-9 generator in my signal chain at one time, and it was amazing. i actually have been thinking about getting one again, but wanted some opinions about using non-traditional stuff like that, like using pa cabs, like using only a pedal and power amp, consumer electronics, guitar stuff, etc.

christw · #2 11-09-2011, 10:31 AM

I love guitar amps on bass. The clean channel on my Marshall JTM-60 turns out a midly gritty but harmonically rich overdrive when I plug a very nice Jazz Bass into it and it into my B52 guitar cab. It's rated at 320w RMS thermal handling and designated for metal/heavy music use, so I trust it can take the worst of the surges of my two EL34's pushing hard. The overdrive channel never needs up more than 4/10 which actually is about 4 times the gain on my clean channel. Sounds sooo good with any bass. I think P Basses have the most to gain from overdrive personally and man do they shine.

I also use a Sound City 120 for bass. I've probably used 5 different guitar amps with bass cabs and my Rickenbacker and played punk on them. Love it! Gritty, fun, melodic, and aggressive Rickenbacker tone is all I ask from punk music.

Plenty of times our effects pedals jump instrument ship too. Oh, and the SVT-CL isn't a half bad blues amp. Sounds awesome with a creamy Les Paul. But yeah, lots of mix and matching goes on with me. I've used an old organ's reverb amplifier for a sweeeeet sounding blues amp. I recorded ska bass and guitar off of what appears to either be an early model of a '50's GA-5 or Champ.

Afterthought: There was a time that some on TB can attest to where there were many amps that were just musical instrument amplifiers and not so specialized. M opnion is as long as you aren't operating the whatever it is amp outside of it's specs, I don't see too much of a problem.

basscooker · #3 11-09-2011, 10:51 AM

sweet. ukno one of my first rigs was the guts from a magnavox console tube stereo. i used the phono input and got a geezer/sabbath kind of drive. it also had these 14 inch woofers and horn tweets that i made cabs for and just used the crossovers that were already there! and i miss it. btw i love your signature-- i agree across the board.

seamonkey · #4 11-09-2011, 10:54 AM

Not mainline, yet, is modeling

News at 11:00

DMB Bassist Creates High Tech Tunes - NY1.com
Search youtube for live concert performances by Dave Mathews Band to hear this.

All the racks of hardware are now plugins.

I have not seen the Carver modeled but I see many stereo from mono, or stereo field adjustment plugins.

Modeling is actually old school. Reverb tanks that model room acoustics have been around since day 1. Some, like spring reverbs were not always accurate and they ended up as a signature sound of their own.

There are plenty of modeled plug ins of spring, plate reverbs, and now convolution reverb of famous halls. The digital modeling is highly accurate of them all.

Every aspect of signal processing and amplification can be modeled. You can mix old school with the new right on stage.

basscooker · #5 11-09-2011, 11:07 AM

the carver c-9 is probably the craziest thing you could never truly understand without hearing. i highly suggest it to everyone, even if you just hear it on music (what it's designed for), but with instruments---WOW. someone definately needs to model it, but it's probably totally proprietary and can't be reproduced inexpensively.

seamonkey · #6 11-09-2011, 04:09 PM

Found this:

Sonic Hologram Generator by CARVER - YouTube

Interesting - but I don't quite like the music

basscooker · #7 11-09-2011, 04:53 PM

you can hear the difference, but i'm not sure (i'm using a laptop) the effect truly translates to/from a recording. it actually is supposed to make recornings sound live as they're played back.in person its like the difference between looking at a picture of what's out your window vs looking out your window. but still you kinda get the idea here.

johnk_10 · #8 11-09-2011, 06:03 PM

IMO, modeling or digital reverbs still don't even come close EMT plates.

i have some quality digital reverbs, including a Lexicon 300, two Lexi 224XLs, a PCM90, a PCM60 and an LXP15, and IMO (and everyone that i've recorded), agree that the EMT plates sound better, and way more natural everytime.

ask anyone that has experience with pro gear and i think that you'll find that they agree.

seamonkey · #9 11-09-2011, 10:00 PM

Check this out!

http://thecarversite.com/shell2.htm

Has a schematic and circuit explanation

http://thecarversite.com/manuals/fil...e%20manual.pdf

Analog delay lines (not bucket brigade) with taps summed together.
I can see why "audiophiles" might frown on it, but for a musician - it can be a creative tool.

This has been duplicated in plugins with variable delays. More like it's been rediscovered. Here's a free one that is very good
Free VST, AU PlugIns - Audio PlugIn Category - Voxengo

johnk_10 · #10 11-09-2011, 10:10 PM

it makes me wonder if seamonkey owns all of the plug-ins that he is constantly recommending, or if he's just going by what he reads and hears on the internet.

basscooker · #11 11-09-2011, 10:27 PM

am i not understanding the def of modeling? i'm totally not a computer wiz, and my stuff doesn't go thru a computer except to record. i don't really even do post recording tweaks but maybe some eq. is the cheapo 'modeling' pedal i use for guitar a different modeling than has been mentioned here? is a plugin a fancy name for a downloaded effect? scuze my dummacity. to my experience, tho (just cheap stuff) analog beats the crap out of digital for reverb, but in my first post i really was looking for wierd non bass guitar stuff that has yielded good results when recording. i wouldn't want to take cooky stuff to a show--specifically b/c it typically won't stand up to rigors of travel, except like pa stuff, etc. but that c-9 is rack-mountable and for lack of a better description, it 'lifts' the sound. strange that you don't really notice the diff when u turn it on, but rather you notice when u turn it off. just can't be described-you have to hear it live/in person-not recorded or thru headphones. anyway thanks for the links seamonkey, i'll check them out, but don't really speak schematic- it might as well b cuneiform

JimmyM · #12 11-09-2011, 11:01 PM

You have it right. it's all just variations on trying to sound tubey. Some of it's really good, some isn't, I've stuck mostly with analog for live gigs but I do have some digital stuff. But I find they work best with real tube amps

basscooker · #13 11-09-2011, 11:18 PM

hey jimmy, thanx for that- i noticed my crate powerblock is mmmm'k with that cheap pedal, but my 40's/50's ampro tube amp makes me sound like everything solid state guitar amps arent. by the way-check out my tubey- not a bass amp-hell not even a guitar amp- it's for a movie projector (and totally a homegrown project i put together from cheap evilbay stuff) but man it sounds awesome...i have actuall done more work, but you get the idea..

Duke21 · #14 11-09-2011, 11:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JimmyM

You have it right. it's all just variations on trying to sound tubey. Some of it's really good, some isn't, I've stuck mostly with analog for live gigs but I do have some digital stuff. But I find they work best with real tube amps

I love the Ampeg emulation in my Amplitube for iPad, I even use it in band rehearsals. But it do makes me wanting a PF350 or even better a SVT CL

JimmyM · #15 11-09-2011, 11:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by basscooker

hey jimmy, thanx for that- i noticed my crate powerblock is mmmm'k with that cheap pedal, but my 40's/50's ampro tube amp makes me sound like everything solid state guitar amps arent. by the way-check out my tubey- not a bass amp-hell not even a guitar amp- it's for a movie projector (and totally a homegrown project i put together from cheap evilbay stuff) but man it sounds awesome...i have actuall done more work, but you get the idea..

Wow, that is simply amazing and stunning! My first time seeing them...man, that is a class look! I'd love to see that kind of 50's flair with amps again.

BogeyBass · #16 11-09-2011, 11:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnk_10

it makes me wonder if seamonkey owns all of the plug-ins that he is constantly recommending, or if he's just going by what he reads and hears on the internet.

Maybe a bit of both, but i have to say im 2 sided, where i completely understand and hear why a purist stands his ground.

But i also have been working with digital for a long time, and alot of Plugins that are now 10 years old. Still sound very good.

And yes certain things remain better simple and pure. and the "classic's" live on.

if we are talking bass amps...yah all tube wonder, take a pick Svt, V4 , Dual Showman.

but if we are talking reverbs and delays and mixing and compression. Digital gives you much much more. And as far as convolution reverbs that Sea Monkey mentioned are pretty amazing. I could do a impulse response of that famous reverb and the convolution would be able to be dead on reproduction. And a blind test could prove it. A convolution depending on the resolution could theoretically sample every single frequency, and be able to reproduce hundreds of delay times/ decay times for every frequency. to the point where say 60hz in grand central station would echo and decay, this many times, and because of the lockers,tiles or the bench, certain frequency would delay more or the repeat would change, and then echo again.
Multiple impulse responses are able to reproduce every frequency in any room, so with a high resolution response you could recreate Grand central station, or a Famous church or your car interior. Then be able to play back any vocal /instrument track thru the effect and sound exactly like grand central station. since every single frequency has been mapped and the plugin will be able to create a very complicated echo. not just a plain jane plate or spring which just creates its own set delay response/repeats/decay.
anyhoo
I have bought/ worked with Waves plugins and it is some pretty good stuff.

basscooker · #17 11-09-2011, 11:51 PM

so, off topic, but those cabs are all orig with jensen p12's. the amp has 1 12ax7 and a pair of 6v6. so, what, like 15-20 watts? not knocking down walls but loud enough to record and hang three piece for jams-which is all i do with a guitar anyway.

Calaverasgrande · #18 11-09-2011, 11:57 PM

most boxes like the carver are playing games with phase and frequency. I think this kind of stuff is fun and fine to do on a stereo mix. But low bass freqs seem to suffer from such effects. I remember once a band I was in recorded in some dudes garage ADAT studio. He put this odd phase/flange effect on the bass that made it really pop out of the speakers. However in mono the phase effect canceled out pretty badly and you couldnt hear the bass when it was playing low notes.

JimmyM · #19 11-09-2011, 11:57 PM

I've got a guitar amp with a pair of 6v6's that does 15w. Probably a good guess.

seamonkey · #20 11-10-2011, 10:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by basscooker

am i not understanding the def of modeling? i'm totally not a computer wiz, and my stuff doesn't go thru a computer except to record. i don't really even do post recording tweaks but maybe some eq. is the cheapo 'modeling' pedal i use for guitar a different modeling than has been mentioned here? is a plugin a fancy name for a downloaded effect? scuze my dummacity. to my experience, tho (just cheap stuff) analog beats the crap out of digital for reverb, but in my first post i really was looking for wierd non bass guitar stuff that has yielded good results when recording. i wouldn't want to take cooky stuff to a show--specifically b/c it typically won't stand up to rigors of travel, except like pa stuff, etc. but that c-9 is rack-mountable and for lack of a better description, it 'lifts' the sound. strange that you don't really notice the diff when u turn it on, but rather you notice when u turn it off. just can't be described-you have to hear it live/in person-not recorded or thru headphones. anyway thanks for the links seamonkey, i'll check them out, but don't really speak schematic- it might as well b cuneiform

I use a feature of Talkbass called an ignore list. Some here only troll my posts and try to discredit me. So if I appear to not be keeping up, it is only that I see what's important to me on the list.

First, please keep an open mind. If in the past you tried a digital reverb and didn't like it, don't assume that all digital reverbs are bad. There are several different qualities of reverb, algorithm, convolution, and there's good implementations and bad.

Free plugins are free. They only take your time to try. Most commercial plugins have demos - they too only take your time to try.

I not sure why some people here are so down on modeling. The manufacturers aren't. In fact you can read the Interviews with Cliff Cooper who founded Orange and why he's jumping on the modeling bandwagon. In a big way for guitarist, Orange has an Amp with a build in PC. In in the Guinness book or World Records as Tiago Della Vega broke the world fastest guitar player record. Dispelling any myths about latency.

That's only part of the story, why Orange assists developing and certifying their models is, they get a cut, and from Cliff Cooper himself "We find that a lot of people who use the Orange amps in AmpliTube then decide they like that sound and buy the real thing."

Simple as that. Try it before you buy it. Try the model version. If you like it, and want to use the real thing live or in a studio, you at least know what to go out and buy.

Use your DAW (Sonar, Reaper, whatever) just like a recording mixer.
Just drop the plugin VST (.dll) into your vstfolder, which is likely c:\Program Files\VstPlugins (assuming you're on a pc)

Then start your daw and have it rescan for plugins. Then right click on the Master faders "FX" box, or on a channel "FX" box to insert the plugin.
This is really like plugin in the cables on an external piece of gear. The window for the plugin should pop up and you can arm a channel for record and tweak the knobs to give it a try.

The whole world of plugins, from rotary speakers to harmony generators are open to you. Guitar, Keyboard, and studio effects. If you find something you like. Like Orange, there's a good chance you'll find a hardware version, or even a Muse Receptor, that you can rackmount and carry around all your plugins ready to go.