number os speakers in cabs: influence?

Mr. BassmanPT · #1 07-30-2010, 07:10 AM

general question: if you have a 212 cabinet, how does it compare against a 412 cabinet? i am referring to this tone wise. lets say i play a tune in a 212 cab and the same tune in a 412, can you tell the difference?

what are the differences with both cabs? apart from the obvious power....

Mr. Foxen · #2 07-30-2010, 07:25 AM

In theory 6db from the increased voltage sensitivity and doubled cone area. Additionally if the extra cones are beside horizontally, the midrange dispersion decreases.

If you have a pair of 2x12s or vertical 4x12, stacking them moves the topmost closer to your ears, which is beneficial.

waleross · #3 07-30-2010, 08:13 AM

I don't know about the theory stuff. However its what type of music you are playing that counts. Small venue coffee house light rock/folk a good 210 cab will work. You can always run it through a PA if it is not loud enough. Any 410 cab can be enough on its own in a small - med sized gig. Finally there is my fav. the 810E where they all say "hey please turn it down"
, we can't hear the vocals or the guitar". I would rather have too much volume than have to test my rig to its max. You need head room, every size cab has its trade offs.....good luck . . . . . ..

Son of Bovril · #4 07-30-2010, 08:25 AM

the biggest difference is more speakers = more VOLUME

All things being equal that should be the only and main difference, but there are always other factors that change the tone slightly... a bigger cab usually has slightly more low end and mid dispersion may be reduced due to the arrangement of the speakers relative to each other etc.

stylonpilson · #5 07-30-2010, 08:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmaranhao

general question: if you have a 212 cabinet, how does it compare against a 412 cabinet? i am referring to this tone wise. lets say i play a tune in a 212 cab and the same tune in a 412, can you tell the difference?

what are the differences with both cabs? apart from the obvious power....

Each 12" speaker will have a certain volume threshold above which the nature of the sound will change - it will get compressed, and start to distort slightly.

So when you're playing quietly, the two will sound more or less the same, but as you increase the volume, the 412 will stay clean, while the 212 distorts. As you increase the volume further, the 412 will start to distort, and by this point the 212 will be on the brink of dying.

S.P.

babebambi · #6 07-30-2010, 12:38 PM

More of the same speakers couple together do sound better to me, even if SPL (volume) is matched.

IIRC, coupling of multiple speakers smooths out the FR curves.

Mr. BassmanPT · #7 07-31-2010, 07:50 AM

thanks for the answers.. i asked this because i want to buy mesa boogie cabinets. i decided i want to go with 12" speakers this time but the size of the 412 is making me think twice. i do not need more than 300W of power, i have PA support... and i do not have roadies and the space needed to carry the 412 in my car is inexistant.. i need a truck for that

if the 212 powerhouse mesa can give me a similar tone to the 412 then i will go for the 212.. i do not intend to play so loud that the cabinets will distort the sound...

so, by reading all comments, i will look at the 212 cabinet as my best option since it will give me a tone close enough to the 412 and is like half the size.

regards

RickenBoogie · #8 08-01-2010, 11:52 AM

The Powerhouse 212 is an awesome cab, and should sound great. You also have the option to add a second one to get the 412 package with better portability. It won't be exactly the same, but close enough. Be sure to get the 212 as an 8 ohm cab, too.

Mr. BassmanPT · #9 08-01-2010, 06:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RickenBoogie

The Powerhouse 212 is an awesome cab, and should sound great. You also have the option to add a second one to get the 412 package with better portability. It won't be exactly the same, but close enough. Be sure to get the 212 as an 8 ohm cab, too.

the 212 is probably the best option to match the amplifier, a mesa boogie big block 750.. the amplifier delivers 280W @ 8 ohm, 550W @ 4 ohm and 750W @ 2 ohm. the 212 cabinets are 8/4 ohm and are rated 600W.

the 412 is awesome, i would like to have one but it is just too big for my needs. besides, it is rated 1200W @ 8/4 ohm so with that amplifier i cannot really take advantage of all those speakers.

just one question that popped at this moment, mesa website says the cabinets are 8/4 ohm, does this mean the same cabinet will run at 8 or 4 ohm if i want to? does the same cabinet have both plugs? (8 and 4 ohm??)

BurningSkies · #10 08-01-2010, 06:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmaranhao

the 212 is probably the best option to match the amplifier, a mesa boogie big block 750.. the amplifier delivers 280W @ 8 ohm, 550W @ 4 ohm and 750W @ 2 ohm. the 212 cabinets are 8/4 ohm and are rated 600W.

the 412 is awesome, i would like to have one but it is just too big for my needs. besides, it is rated 1200W @ 8/4 ohm so with that amplifier i cannot really take advantage of all those speakers.

just one question that popped at this moment, mesa website says the cabinets are 8/4 ohm, does this mean the same cabinet will run at 8 or 4 ohm if i want to? does the same cabinet have both plugs? (8 and 4 ohm??)

It means they make both 4 and 8 ohm versions. Pick one.

Mr. Foxen · #11 08-01-2010, 06:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmaranhao

besides, it is rated 1200W @ 8/4 ohm so with that amplifier i cannot really take advantage of all those speakers.

Doesn't really work like that. The more speakers you have the less amp you need, as you can get equivalent volume from less power.

Mr. BassmanPT · #12 08-01-2010, 06:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BurningSkies

It means they make both 4 and 8 ohm versions. Pick one.

thanks!

since this amplifier can run at 2 ohm i will go for the 4 ohm model, this way i can have 550W from the amplifier and if i want to buy another cabinet later it will give me 750W if i get another cabinet @ 4 ohm.

thanks a lot for the answer mate!

Mr. BassmanPT · #13 08-01-2010, 06:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr. Foxen

Doesn't really work like that. The more speakers you have the less amp you need, as you can get equivalent volume from less power.

can you explain that again? sorry

Mr. Foxen · #14 08-02-2010, 03:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmaranhao

can you explain that again? sorry

If you have 50 watts (say a valve head so it stays the same power when you add cabs)and a 2x12, and add another 2x12, you'll be louder, without increasing the 'watts'. Because you have more speakers means the power is used more efficiently as you have more air being moved. You can't have too many speakers or too many 'watts' of speaker for an amp to handle, as long as you have the impedance/ohm matched correctly.

If you are loud enough with 100w and a 2x12, you'll probably only need 50w if you have two 2x12s or an equivalent 4x12.

Bassmec · #15 08-02-2010, 05:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr. Foxen

If you have 50 watts (say a valve head so it stays the same power when you add cabs)and a 2x12, and add another 2x12, you'll be louder, without increasing the 'watts'. Because you have more speakers means the power is used more efficiently as you have more air being moved. You can't have too many speakers or too many 'watts' of speaker for an amp to handle, as long as you have the impedance/ohm matched correctly.

If you are loud enough with 100w and a 2x12, you'll probably only need 50w if you have two 2x12s or an equivalent 4x12.

Yup! This is because if you add another driver, you get an increase of approximately 3 dB.
To increase the sound level via the single speaker to the same 3dB increased level, you would need approximately twice the watts.

Mr. BassmanPT · #16 08-02-2010, 06:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr. Foxen

If you have 50 watts (say a valve head so it stays the same power when you add cabs)and a 2x12, and add another 2x12, you'll be louder, without increasing the 'watts'. Because you have more speakers means the power is used more efficiently as you have more air being moved. You can't have too many speakers or too many 'watts' of speaker for an amp to handle, as long as you have the impedance/ohm matched correctly.

If you are loud enough with 100w and a 2x12, you'll probably only need 50w if you have two 2x12s or an equivalent 4x12.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bassmec

Yup! This is because if you add another driver, you get an increase of approximately 3 dB.
To increase the sound level via the single speaker to the same 3dB increased level, you would need approximately twice the watts.

got it!!! thanks for the good answers

but this is even worse, i want to go with the 212 due to space and weight but the 412 keeps getting all the praise, even indirectly like in both posts

daflores · #17 08-02-2010, 08:23 AM

I pair an Aggie GS410 with a Mesa 115 powered by a Mesa Carbine 9. I turn down my master volume and I still get huge stage sound when compared to the 410 alone.

Mr. BassmanPT · #18 08-02-2010, 02:57 PM

man, i really do not know what cabinet to buy.. already have the prices on everything, it is just the cabinet that i do not know..

babebambi · #19 08-02-2010, 04:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmaranhao

since this amplifier can run at 2 ohm i will go for the 4 ohm model, this way i can have 550W from the amplifier and if i want to buy another cabinet later it will give me 750W if i get another cabinet @ 4 ohm.

Nothing wrong in the logic there, just be sure that you are keeping that head for a long time. There are a lot more heads that can't go below 4 ohm than those that can.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmaranhao

but this is even worse, i want to go with the 212 due to space and weight but the 412 keeps getting all the praise, even indirectly like in both posts

But you were so sure that 300w was enough for your gig, so 412 doesn't make much sense.

Mr. BassmanPT · #20 08-02-2010, 04:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by babebambi

Nothing wrong in the logic there, just be sure that you are keeping that head for a long time. A lot of other head can't go below 4 ohm.

but you were so sure that 300w was enough for your gig, so 412 doesn't make much sense

i know... but the reading of the forum keeps telling me how great the 412 are against every other cabs. that is why i am so confused