Oh crap, TC is doing it again!

kevin newsham · #1 03-30-2010, 10:06 PM

Just when my TC electronics GAS has me about to explode, they show the newest combo amps in the TC stable. The new pair are the BG500's, in a 2x10 or 1x15 configuration.

Why are they doing this to me, WHY?

Krügmeister · #2 03-30-2010, 10:08 PM

Because they want all our money

rpsands · #3 03-30-2010, 10:22 PM

Those new combos have a dirty secret: They are very heavy for such a combo; 70lbs or so each. That's about 20lbs more than I expect out of a TC 1x15 combo.

KJung · #4 03-31-2010, 05:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rpsands

Those new combos have a dirty secret: They are very heavy for such a combo; 70lbs or so each. That's about 20lbs more than I expect out of a TC 1x15 combo.

+1 Heavier than my large gig 410 rig.

I don't know quite what to make of these combo's. Are they an 'upgrade' of the existing combo's are a 'lower line'. The features look pretty much identical to the RH450 combo. I guess you lose the semi-parametric tone controls, but gain a couple of voicing presets, and it looks like they included that 'tweeter control', similar to the Markbass VLE.

I guess one of the main differences is that I assume (since there is no external speaker output shown on the back of the amp) that the combo cabs are 4ohms, allowing for more power from the amp than the current combo's. I guess that is a good thing if you know you will never need more than a 115 or 210.

Strange offering to me.... the 210 combo seems almost identical in features to the current RH450 combo... I don't get it

kevin newsham · #5 03-31-2010, 05:19 AM

I am sure it will be heavy, looks like it. Like a RH450, but with an oldschool power supply. Only so light you can make it, for a sub-grand combo amp. I may have to leave that combo for the younger and stronger kids out here, but I thought it was kind of neat that they were doing this.

KJung · #6 03-31-2010, 05:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kevin newsham

I am sure it will be heavy, looks like it. Like a RH450, but with an oldschool power supply. Only so light you can make it, for a sub-grand combo amp. I may have to leave that combo for the younger and stronger kids out here, but I thought it was kind of neat that they were doing this.

Ah, so it is a 'lower line' product. That makes sense... kind of like the Epifani PS line versus the UL or whatever.

rpsands · #7 03-31-2010, 09:50 AM

You know, the cheaper guys are always saying how making stuff light costs so much more. That's a copout.

The RETAIL cost of wood for building a 2x10 / 1x15 style cabinet out of 1/2" AC plywood is around 25 bucks. The cost of MDF is around 9 bucks or what have you. I imagine the labor cost is somewhere around 2 hours / cab for extra bracing, at the tops, assuming you're not using a C&C machine.

The cost difference between a mass producing a light cabinet and a heavy cabinet simply cannot be the hundreds of dollars suppliers make it out to be.

If Acoustic gave you the option, for example, to buy their 90lb MDF 4x10 or their 50lb 1/2" AC 4x10 for 50 dollars more, they would sell NONE of the MDF models.

Rick Auricchio · #8 03-31-2010, 09:54 AM

Don't forget that you must multiply manufacturing cost by quite a bit to get consumer retail price.

Factory cost. Mark it up so the factory makes a profit.

Distributor markup is typically at least 15%.

Retailer markup is at least 40%.

So a $50 increase in manufacturing cost becomes almost $80 to the consumer. It adds up really fast, and now we aren't competing with the other brands.

robb. · #9 03-31-2010, 11:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rpsands

The RETAIL cost of wood for building a 2x10 / 1x15 style cabinet out of 1/2" AC plywood is around 25 bucks. The cost of MDF is around 9 bucks or what have you.

The cost difference between a mass producing a light cabinet and a heavy cabinet simply cannot be the hundreds of dollars suppliers make it out to be.

you realize you're acknowledging that materials cost is almost triple the price. that's a 278% difference. this is not to mention the markups for both their profit as well as their dealers' profits. you clearly don't seem to understand the relationship between manufacturer cost and MSRP/MAP/dealer price.

to me it sounds like they're doing us a favor. i'm just sayin'.

robb.

rpsands · #10 03-31-2010, 11:34 AM

Hold on one second here - 50 dollars is my ballpark for the total markup included price. 25 dollars is the retail cost of lumber; the wholesale cost for a large buyer is probably in the neighborhood of half that.

278% cost increase makes it sound like a lot but it must be compared to the total materials cost of the cabinet.

Say the wholesale materials cost of a cabinet is 100 dollars. You drop the 5 dollar MDF and add 15 dollar plywood; now you're at 110 dollars. That's a 10% increase in total materials cost, which is a lot closer to reality. Even if the materials cost is 50 dollars and you drop 5 dollar mdf for 15 dollar plwyood that's only a 20% increase in materials cost.

Labor cost for adding bracing is the only variable I have no idea about, but in reality gluing in some bracing shouldn't take very long especially if it's CNC'd to fit.

KJung · #11 03-31-2010, 11:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rpsands

Hold on one second here - 50 dollars is my ballpark for the total markup included price. 25 dollars is the retail cost of lumber; the wholesale cost for a large buyer is probably in the neighborhood of half that.

278% cost increase makes it sound like a lot but it must be compared to the total materials cost of the cabinet.

Say the wholesale materials cost of a cabinet is 100 dollars. You drop the 5 dollar MDF and add 15 dollar plywood; now you're at 110 dollars. That's a 10% increase in total materials cost, which is a lot closer to reality. Even if the materials cost is 50 dollars and you drop 5 dollar mdf for 15 dollar plwyood that's only a 20% increase in materials cost.

Labor cost for adding bracing is the only variable I have no idea about, but in reality gluing in some bracing shouldn't take very long especially if it's CNC'd to fit.

It's a complicated thing. The cost of the lighter weight plywood is a lot (amazing what Don pays for a sheet of that stuff.). But, the main issue is availability... hard to get and hard to keep in stock.

Yes, you can go 1/2", but that's quite a compromise IMO, and a number of builders don't want to use it (it vibrates like crazy unless you really go crazy on the bracing, which adds a ton of labor and yet more cost... and weight!).

Given that margins are very tight, an extra 20% material cost on the box could very well be the difference between profit and loss (easily), even if you could get the darn stuff on a consistent basis.

rpsands · #12 03-31-2010, 11:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KJung

It's a complicated thing. The cost of the lighter weight plywood is a lot (amazing what Don pays for a sheet of that stuff.). But, the main issue is availability... hard to get and hard to keep in stock.

Yes, you can go 1/2", but that's quite a compromise IMO, and a number of builders don't want to use it (it vibrates like crazy unless you really go crazy on the bracing, which adds a tone of labor and yet more cost).

Given that margins are very tight, an extra 20% material cost on the box could very well be the difference between profit and loss (easily), even if you could get the darn stuff on a consistent basis.

Yeah the stuff Don uses is quite hard to get and expensive. 1/2" ACX is not; there're 30-50 sheets at hundreds of Lowes across the country all year long.

"going crazy with the bracing" is not really as hard as it sounds - especially with a CNC setup.

Just pass the price on to the users. Give them a choice between paying 50 bucks for a 20-30% weight savings and see where they go

The point I'm getting at is simple and inescapable: The difference in cost between using MDF and lightweight ply is not what it is made out to be.

If you want to see my point proven, look at the new GK MBE cabs.