Okay.......*** Sweetwater said......

GrinningMouth88 · #1 07-25-2011, 11:03 AM

Just talked to the tech guy at sweetwater, he told me two interesting things that I would like to run by you guys because I've heard opinions to the contrary all over here. First, he said adding a 800w gallien-krueger 410mbe to my mb210 combo is a bad idea, he said it will kill the amp and the speakers (but gallien-krueger themselves say that it's an excellent combo). Second of all, he said getting a neo 412 for my 700rb II is also a very bad idea again, because i will be trying to push 480watts into a 1200 watt handling cab. He said underpowing is much much worse than overpowering a cab. I've heard opinions to the contrary all over this forum. Thoughts?

jnewmark · #2 07-25-2011, 11:05 AM

There is no such thing as underpowering a cab.

**mikeddd** · #3 07-25-2011, 11:07 AM

In addition to what jnewmark said: Either get another MB210 or sell the one you have and buy what you want/need. Don't mix/match cabs.

Rockmusician · #4 07-25-2011, 11:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jnewmark

There is no such thing as underpowering a cab.

Actually, there is. If you do not have enough power to move the speakers, you will hear nothing.

Having said that, I think I would take the opinion of the people at GK.

**mikeddd** · #5 07-25-2011, 11:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rockmusician

Actually, there is. If you do not have enough power to move the speakers, you will hear nothing.

Having said that, I think I would take the opinion of the people at GK.

Some people just gotta get all technical...

fenderhutz · #6 07-25-2011, 11:10 AM

Sounds like he has an uneducated opinion. It may not sound good, but ruining something? Not so much.

If you have a 210 combo, grab a 210 cab of similar wattage. 115 combo? 115 cab of similar wattage as an extension. Mixing and matching cabs may not sound great, but as long as the ohms match up it should be fine functionally.

JumboFriendly · #7 07-25-2011, 11:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GrinningMouth88

Just talked to the tech guy at sweetwater, he told me two interesting things that I would like to run by you guys because I've heard opinions to the contrary all over here. First, he said adding a 800w gallien-krueger 410mbe to my mb210 combo is a bad idea, he said it will kill the amp and the speakers (but gallien-krueger themselves say that it's an excellent combo). Second of all, he said getting a neo 412 for my 700rb II is also a very bad idea again, because i will be trying to push 480watts into a 1200 watt handling cab. He said underpowing is much much worse than overpowering a cab. I've heard opinions to the contrary all over this forum. Thoughts?

Call the guy back and ask him what you should do when you're not playing, since the cab will be getting zero power from the amp when turned off.

Nev375 · #8 07-25-2011, 11:14 AM

Underpowering as a cause for damage is a myth. It's a conspiracy by manufacturers and sellers to misinform people and trick them into buying more equipment.

JB696 · #9 07-25-2011, 11:16 AM

I wouldn't worry about it as long as you are careful. Just be sure to always keep the volume on your bass and amp turned up all the way all the time. That way you will have less chance of dipping into the "underpowered zone" which could melt the output transformers on the amp and blow the voice coils right through the speaker grills. Just use your ears and be careful.

Dethrats · #10 07-25-2011, 11:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GrinningMouth88

He said underpowing is much much worse than overpowering a cab.

i would have said:
but..but... what if the head and amp match watts perfectly, you have to run at 100% volume??????? Because running 50% would be "Underpowering"

/Sarcasm.

**Horny Toad** · #11 07-25-2011, 11:20 AM

BillFitzmaurice.info - View topic - Can I underpower my speakers?Will clipping hurt them?

TinIndian · #12 07-25-2011, 11:21 AM

OK. Sure. I guess I'm going to destroy my Hartke Hydrive 4x10 then. 1,000 watt cab and a 700RBII.

Thunder Pulse · #13 07-25-2011, 11:25 AM

When people say 'underpowering' is bad and everyone rolls their eyes and laughs at them, isn't it possible that what they really mean is turning the volume up on a solid-state amp to the point where the amp is clipping and then sending that signal out to the cab is what's bad?

It's impossible for me to believe that they think taking a 100 watt head and turning it up to '2' is going to damage a cab that will handle 1200 watts.

staindbass · #14 07-25-2011, 11:33 AM

lol, i run my 2000 watt rms amp at about 6-900 watts all the time. i think when people mention underpowering the mean blasting a 100 watt amp into distortion to make it loud enough for the purpose. you can kill a 250w rms speaker with 200w if its distorted into a square wave by the power amp being overdriven. in a guitar amp the power section is mainy reproducing the distortion produced by the preamp section, and its not as harsh on the speakers.

billfitzmaurice · #15 07-25-2011, 11:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GrinningMouth88

Just talked to the tech guy at sweetwater... Thoughts?

He's clueless. Based on his level of technical expertise I wouldn't trust him to recommend a set of strings.

Quote:

you can kill a 250w rms speaker with 200w if its distorted into a square wave by the power amp being overdriven.

You can kill a 250 w speaker with a 200w rated amp if you push the amp past its rated power, which will clip it of course, but also will allow it to deliver well more than 200w, in which case the speaker will receive enough to kill it via overpowering. The waveform shape is moot. Clipping can hurt tweeters, but it has absolutely no effect on woofers whatsoever.

GrinningMouth88 · #16 07-25-2011, 11:37 AM

Idk guys, my head is spinning. I play loud, I play metal in a lot of forms, i need tone and I need that punch in the chest. I've been flip flopping for months now on what I need to get the job done. I need oomph, tone, reliability. I'd prefer not to spend bookoo dollars on a setup. What do I need? I'm about 2 second from selling all of my stuff and just going with an ampeg fridge and head with near matching output and handling because I'm tired of all the options and opinions and setups. I just want something that will be heard between two loud guitards that's not going to die on me in a couple years after being on the road. Sorry for the frustration, I need to stop getting different ideas and just pull the trigger on a loud gig-worthy setup. Now i'm thinking my 700rbII might not be enough......

playerunk · #17 07-25-2011, 11:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rockmusician

Actually, there is. If you do not have enough power to move the speakers, you will hear nothing.

Having said that, I think I would take the opinion of the people at GK.

any estimate to what power is needed just to move the speaker ?..like the undepowering limit ? 0.5w ?

kaputsport · #18 07-25-2011, 11:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nev375

Underpowering as a cause for damage is a myth. It's a conspiracy by manufacturers and sellers to misinform people and trick them into buying more equipment.

I disagree 100%.

Putting 1 watt into a 1000 watt cab will yield very little volume. The point is, when you push an amplifier to it's limits, you create distortion in the signal, that is amplified and sent to the cab. The cab will reproduce this distortion as a square wave and will overheat the speakers as they cool down by moving.

If you feed a decent amount of power to a speaker (even more than rated for) the speaker can handle the note/signal fine because the wave is smooth. Clean power to a speaker is all you should concern yourself with.

I power a 200 watt RMS cab with a 4000 watt peak head and I have absolutely no trouble with volume, or being heard. However, I would probably have an issue if those figures were reversed.

**Horny Toad** · #19 07-25-2011, 11:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thunder Pulse

...isn't it possible that what they really mean is turning the volume up on a solid-state amp to the point where the amp is clipping and then sending that signal out to the cab is what's bad

Quote:

Originally Posted by staindbass

you can kill a 250w rms speaker with 200w if its distorted into a square wave by the power amp being overdriven.

Quote:

Originally Posted by kaputsport

Putting 1 watt into a 1000 watt cab will yield very little volume. The point is, when you push an amplifier to it's limits, you create distortion in the signal, that is amplified and sent to the cab. The cab will reproduce this distortion as a square wave and will overheat the speakers as they cool down by moving.

Despite the tireless efforts of some, there are still many people that believe that underpowering a speaker will damage it or that clipping will damage a speaker. Please remember that these last two thoughts are entirely UNTRUE! And now we will find out why.

BillFitzmaurice.info - View topic - Can I underpower my speakers?Will clipping hurt them?

KJung · #20 07-25-2011, 11:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GrinningMouth88

Idk guys, my head is spinning. I play loud, I play metal in a lot of forms, i need tone and I need that punch in the chest. I've been flip flopping for months now on what I need to get the job done. I need oomph, tone, reliability. I'd prefer not to spend bookoo dollars on a setup. What do I need? I'm about 2 second from selling all of my stuff and just going with an ampeg fridge and head with near matching output and handling because I'm tired of all the options and opinions and setups. I just want something that will be heard between two loud guitards that's not going to die on me in a couple years after being on the road. Sorry for the frustration, I need to stop getting different ideas and just pull the trigger on a loud gig-worthy setup. Now i'm thinking my 700rbII might not be enough......

Once you have a powerful head like the 700RB, the way to get louder is more drivers combined with lower impedance.

The wattage rating of a cabinet, for all practical purposes, means absolutely nothing. Ignore it. It is a very loose indication of the maximum wattage you can put into a cab prior to thermal damage. It has nothing to do, as stated above, with how much power you 'need' or how loud the cab will get.

If you get that 700 running at 4ohms with two relatively high SPL cabs that are also large in an absolute sense (i.e., two 8ohm 212's or 410's) you will be good to go.

I'd stick with GK since you can then use that cool treble side biamp system, in case you want to growl and snarl but still have some upper treble extension that does not sound harsh.