onstage VS FOH...Whats the point?

[Kmonk]

If you are running through FOH your rig is really more of a stage monitor for yourself and the band. It will project sound to the audience but FOH is doing the majority of the work. Look at some of the bigger named musicians such as Eric Clapton and Steve Miller. They are using small combo amps on stage and letting FOH do the work. I think we are so used to having a large rig with us that we think that our sound suffers if its not there. The truth is that if our stage volume is too loud we can actually sound worse because we are competing with FOH. I do enjoy having my rig with me though.

[Sundogue]

Originally Posted by Kmonk

If you are running through FOH your rig is really more of a stage monitor for yourself and the band. It will project sound to the audience but FOH is doing the majority of the work. Look at some of the bigger named musicians such as Eric Clapton and Steve Miller. They are using small combo amps on stage and letting FOH do the work. I think we are so used to having a large rig with us that we think that our sound suffers if its not there. The truth is that if our stage volume is too loud we can actually sound worse because we are competing with FOH. I do enjoy having my rig with me though.

Let me know when Eric Clapton or Steve Miller need me to fill in on bass. I will happily use whatever backline is provided. If I'm gigging at that level, I couldn't care less about "my" rig. Though I suppose if I were gigging with those guys I could put just about anything in the rider I wanted to use, dontcha think?

Most of us on TB aren't going through that level of PA even when we are going through a pretty good PA. I'd wager the majority on TB really do need an adequate rig (whatever adequate means to each) even if they go through a PA. Some have no PA at all. I played a few concerts back in the day where the sidewash monitors alone were so damned good (and bigger than most full bar PA's today) a DI was all I needed. Now? With just a DI or a cute little amp, nobody would even hear me, onstage or off.

Different strokes for different folks and all.

[ThisBass]

Originally Posted by brenner182

So i feel like i had an epiphany tonight. We, as bass players, strive for our ideal tone. We spend numerous amounts of dollars on our equipment. We research day in and day out(ok maybe it's just me, but just bear with me) looking up equipment and relying on our TB brothers(and sisters) to find opinions on the things we spend our hard earned dollars on...

When you are relying on a sound guy, Do you really NEED a full stack?

Me personally, I've tried a bunch of stuff. When i first started playing i bought a fender bassman 410 and thought i had the biggest weiner on the block. Then i saw other people had other brands that were not fender and i was like... that's not a fender so that means they suck and bought the wrong guitar cab.

Then i became an adult and learned about this little thing called research. I learned that besides my up bringing that there were other brands other than Fender. So i branched out. I've had a Crate, I've had Ampeg. I've had a SWR. And not last AND not least i've owned Peavey.( I Feel everybody should own something peavey at some point. I still love peavey to this day <3<3)

But tonight i stared at my rig and asked myself, What's the point of owning this stuff? (Keep in mind, My current stacks consist of a Fender bassman 410 with a matching bassman 115; a Ampeg 810 classic and 2 Earcandy bassbomb 212"s)

But normally i have a sound guy that always tells me to turn down, So why should i even bother having all this stuff if no matter what i do i'm always too loud? I don't play shows anymore that rely on only a vocal pa?

I'm 24. Am i already jaded to carrying my fridge? HALP!!!!

I'm 52 but I never had problems with FOH's to override (to top) the PA with some 70's SVT sound.
But, only a little ...

[Sartori]

Having a rig that I really like makes it more fun for me.

And the main reason I'm playing is because it's fun.

[Sartori]

Originally Posted by Sundogue

Let me know when Eric Clapton or Steve Miller need me to fill in on bass. I will happily use whatever backline is provided. If I'm gigging at that level, I couldn't care less about "my" rig. Though I suppose if I were gigging with those guys I could put just about anything in the rider I wanted to use, dontcha think?

Most of us on TB aren't going through that level of PA even when we are going through a pretty good PA. I'd wager the majority on TB really do need an adequate rig (whatever adequate means to each) even if they go through a PA. Some have no PA at all. I played a few concerts back in the day where the sidewash monitors alone were so damned good (and bigger than most full bar PA's today) a DI was all I needed. Now? With just a DI or a cute little amp, nobody would even hear me, onstage or off.

Different strokes for different folks and all.

+1

Most of my gigs, if I didn't bring my rig, I'd be playing unplugged.

[JimmyM]

Originally Posted by BassmanPaul

Seems that Bowzer does a lot of yellin'!

Not so much at me anymore but he does a fair amount

[Bassmec]

Originally Posted by Tuned

As a bassist and sound tech I can confidently tell you this: bring what YOU need to accomplish what you ACTUALLY NEED to get done.

Do you need to drive the room? With proper PA support and a tech out front, NO YOU DO NOT.

Does your fancy vintage gear sound better out in the room than proper PA reinforcement? NO IT DOES NOT. Bass cabinets cannot project deep low end, they can only flood the room with 120-200Hz. Only proper PA subwoofers can project below 100Hz effectively without also pumping out upper bass overtones. If you flood the room with upper bass the tech cannot provide the deep bass since there's already too much boxy sounding crap. If you get the chance, try plugging in a subwoofer's speaker cable to your bass cab, and notice how much more upper bass comes out compared to the subwoofer. That's the entire reason subwoofers exist, because it takes a particular configuration to avoid exactly that.

If you're having trouble hearing, get your cabinet up and close to your torso. If you're using two cabinets, swap out the bottom cabinet for a stool. This will allow you to hear better while playing at a lower volume. Every band I sub in with wants me full-time because I make it easier for them, and every sound tech I play for wishes everyone would do this.

If a bass player I am working with gets a sound on stage with no reinforcement that is a boxy sounding load of old vintage crap, I will endeavour to reproduce exactly that specific boxy load of vintage crap,
in phase and as intelligibly as I can to the audience, that is the job description of a sound reinforcement engineer.
I might work with the bass player vis a vis slight cuts in EQ at various frequencies that resonate strongly with the hall off stage and invite him off stage with his bass to hear the results in the hall before I attempt to reinforce it with the monitors or front of house.
The kind of bass players that I work with, usually have no interest in meeting people with ideas on how to improve their personal amplification when he/she is playing live, they don't like what their producer did to their bass sound on the last album much...and they don't want your input as they have usually found a tone and an EQ that works well against the tuning of the drummers kick drum live, that's why they are usually a great deal more famous than me.
PS what you say about connecting the bass rig up to a PA sub and realising how much more VLF is available, what! without a crossover or DSC in circuit, so from that I deduce you must only use band pass subs then?.
As any other sort of sub would have plenty at 250Hz without a crossover
In circuit.
The reason you may have difficulty with boxy sounds missing large amounts of very low frequency information is because you don't have much experience or the tools for sorting out the exact phase of the wavefront of a large onstage bass rig vis a vis the stage monitors and front of house.
I know they don't teach this kind of thing in music tech and just prefer everybody just take a DI and loose the bass rig rather than learn how to work with phase and interaction of time delays, acoustics and complimentary EQ's.
As the teachers obviously cant find full time gainful employment within the industry, teachers simply don't have the experience to fully grasp these techniques, so they just want to eliminate the on stage rig completely these days. Ergo the progeny of these charlatan educational simpletons now pollute the earth.

[Downunderwonder]

Pray tell how the bass from the stage can be integrated with the nearest sub stack 10ft away for the audience member who is 10ft from the FOH sub but 16ft from the stage amp.

Then tell me the bassist 6ft from the stage amp gets it in phase AND also the audience member 25ft from the FOH, 30ft from stage amp.

I'm dying to know how this magic trick is done because the book learning I did says it can't posssibly happen.

[AuntieBeeb]

Originally Posted by Johnny Crab

I agree 100% with the OP but ONLY when FOH operators know how to do things right.

I think this is one of the key issues - in a lot of places around London the FOH operator doesn't even deserve the title of 'sound engineer.' He works with the promoter to cram as many bands onto the bill as possible and engineers things for the quickest turnaround between bands. Guitarists are allowed to bring small combos but are otherwise encourage to agree between the bands to share one. And bassists are told they will DI. If we're lucky there'll be a nasty little bass amp on stage which is supposedly a "monitor" but will otherwise make bugger-all contribution to our sound. My heart sinks every time I read this in the email about backline, but I know it's not worth arguing about for these little gigs.

I'm keeping a close count of the number of friends who come to see these gigs and comment that "the bass didn't really sound like you normally do" or even "the band was sounding a bit thin."

[Bassmec]

Originally Posted by Downunderwonder

Pray tell how the bass from the stage can be integrated with the nearest sub stack 10ft away for the audience member who is 10ft from the FOH sub but 16ft from the stage amp.

Then tell me the bassist 6ft from the stage amp gets it in phase AND also the audience member 25ft from the FOH, 30ft from stage amp.

I'm dying to know how this magic trick is done because the book learning I did says it can't posssibly happen.

Simple Sound travels 1.1 feet per millisecond so you will need micro delays and you will also require one of these bad boys to fine up the bass players approximate stage position:
http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/nov0...littlelabs.htm
It won't be perfect everywhere but massive improvements in intelligibility and tone are possible In most of the important places to stand.

[Downunderwonder]

In other words so long as the bassist hears it in phase, and the sound booth nearly in phase, everyone else can find a spot where their favourite note booms but the rest is mud?

That is the best you can hope for if you have a mess of stage bass interfering, afaik.

[Bassmec]

Originally Posted by Downunderwonder

In other words so long as the bassist hears it in phase, and the sound booth nearly in phase, everyone else can find a spot where their favourite note booms but the rest is mud?

That is the best you can hope for if you have a mess of stage bass interfering, afaik.

If you have a big venue and a big PA and monitors you have a lot more
disparate sound sources than I bass amp one PA stack and one floor monitor to deal with, how would you deal with the difference in time and phase of the floor monitor that provides the fold back if there is no bass rig at all, especially if its a great deal closer to one PA stack than the other.
Same set of problems exist with or without an onstage bass rig unless he just gets in ear monitors and the PA is mono single point source and there is no reflective wall you could hear.
It's better to at least attempt to get as much intelligibility to as many people in the audience as as possible and the bass player perfectly
rather than to ruin the experience for the bass player.
If you stand to one side of the hall even with no bass rig and no monitors or side fills, the left side of the PA and subs is still out of phase with the right.
So you can't win absolutely but doing nothing more than flipping the phase switch on the console channel strip, is not the level I have been working at.

[godofthunder59]

I still carry the big rig and have a fairly loud stage volume. This past weekend the band that opened for us the bass player used a Mark Bass Kickback combo with 2x10s. At the end of the night he was quizing me about my rig and my sound/stage level. He felt he was to low in the FOH mix, he was. He was using his amp as a monitor. He really liked my sound and the impact my stage level had on my band. I also told him I never play without a 15. Both bands were three piece with vox so it was a interesting side by side comparison. Sounds like he is going to buy a 1x15 cab to add to his rig and turn it up a bit That night I had the Hiwatt DR201 and the 2150 (2x15 cab) onstage. Some nights its two heads with more cabs other nights just one. I also recently bought a Orange Terror bass and two 1x15 cabs for smaller venues.
.

[Russell L]

I bring what's needed, that's all. I do not have to have a wall of speakers behind me, for sound or ego. The only thing I do that's uneccessary is bring both 115 cabs sometimes, just because it sounds a bit different than just one, not so I can be louder. Plus, I want stuff that is lightweight. If it's also small that's ok with me. Sometimes I DI, but only when needed, which is about half the time or less. As far as DI'ing only, with no bass rig, I haven't done that. The last backline I used was insufficient, so I always bring something just in case. Soundmen are hot or cold. Once in awhile there's a really good one who knows his stuff, but usually they're average, in which case the best I can hope for is a good sound from my rig onstage. But, most of my gigs are smallish-to-medium-sized these days, so I am usually on my own for carrying the room. At least once a year, though, there comes a big stage show. Then, things get interesting.

[CL400Peavey]

This is a pic of my gig rig. Classic 400 into a 1515/66. If I need more I can bring my pre/power rig. So far I have not run into any situation where I wanted to not have my rig carry the room.

[georgestrings]

Originally Posted by Sartori

Having a rig that I really like makes it more fun for me.

And the main reason I'm playing is because it's fun.

Originally Posted by Bassmec

It's better to at least attempt to get as much intelligibility to as many people in the audience as as possible and the bass player perfectly
rather than to ruin the experience for the bass player.

Exactly - IMO, the soundman's job is to take what's on the stage, and make it louder - without radically altering anything - AND to meet on stage monitor needs...

I play in a loud 2 guitar rock/modern rock/metal band, and the approach *we* take is to match bass and guitar volumes to the drummer(reasonable, right?) - so that *on stage*, we sound good - if the soundman is unable to make that work for him, it's more a statement on his lack of ability than anything... We also make sure that we don't overpower the monitors, so that we can hear vocals well enough on stage... Baiscally, we rehearse the same way we gig - that way, our backline levels stay fairly consistant, and we can start a show without a soundcheck, if needed...

Originally Posted by Downunderwonder

In other words so long as the bassist hears it in phase, and the sound booth nearly in phase, everyone else can find a spot where their favourite note booms but the rest is mud?

That is the best you can hope for if you have a mess of stage bass interfering, afaik.

My experiences during several thousand paid gigs as a bassist tell me that you really don't know as much as you think you do...


- georgestrings

[Sartori]

Originally Posted by Tuned

As a bassist and sound tech I can confidently tell you this: bring what YOU need to accomplish what you ACTUALLY NEED to get done.

Do you need to drive the room? With proper PA support and a tech out front, NO YOU DO NOT.

Does your fancy vintage gear sound better out in the room than proper PA reinforcement? NO IT DOES NOT. Bass cabinets cannot project deep low end, they can only flood the room with 120-200Hz. Only proper PA subwoofers can project below 100Hz effectively without also pumping out upper bass overtones. If you flood the room with upper bass the tech cannot provide the deep bass since there's already too much boxy sounding crap. If you get the chance, try plugging in a subwoofer's speaker cable to your bass cab, and notice how much more upper bass comes out compared to the subwoofer. That's the entire reason subwoofers exist, because it takes a particular configuration to avoid exactly that.

If you're having trouble hearing, get your cabinet up and close to your torso. If you're using two cabinets, swap out the bottom cabinet for a stool. This will allow you to hear better while playing at a lower volume. Every band I sub in with wants me full-time because I make it easier for them, and every sound tech I play for wishes everyone would do this.

It's not every bassist's sonic goal to project a ton of deep sub frequencies. That's kick drum territory, for me.

[Got2SadowskyNYC]

I've donevery large (60,000), small clubs (a couple of hundered) and everything in between. I've used a 4x10 for all of them.

I used to use to have a SWR Goliath III with a Big Ben 1x18. They were 18 years old when I sold them. I used the 1x18 a total of 10 times in an actual gig situation. Some times I'd set it up at my house just to piss of the neighbors.

[KJung]

This topic comes up over and over again, but it is a good one I guess.

To the OP, here are 'Ken's three primary reasons why rigs are so important for many of us':

1) Many, many players do many, many gigs with no front of house support.

2) Many, many gigs with front of house support have either a single monitor mix (or at least, not enough to give the bassist his/her own) and/or monitors that sound like complete dog on stage with a bass pumping through them.

3) Related to 2, most bassists actually play better when they hear what they need/want to hear tonally, even if that tone is not exactly reproduced by the front of house.

[KJung]

Originally Posted by Sartori

It's not every bassist's sonic goal to project a ton of deep sub frequencies. That's kick drum territory, for me.

+1 The post you were responding to made me cringe. IMO, the number one reason for crappy bass tone out in the room in a large venue with big front of house is soundpersons depending on subwoofers to overdo both the bass drum and to crank so much sub bass into a bassist's tone that all you can do is feel it. Totally messes up the mix.

I wish these sound people (at least some of them who have this issue... there are obviously some great ones out there) would actually listen to well engineered recordings. THAT is the tone I try to achieve, and on most pop/pop country/funk/light rock/jazz recordings (which is the context in which I typically perform), the bass slots into the track above the bass drum, and there is VERY little sub bass (i.e., below the typical 60hz or so that a decent cab rolls off) in the mix.

Makes me want to cry when I read a post like that.