Opinions on 2x10 vs 2x12?

[totallyfrozen]

So, is the 12" driver just a compromise between the tight punch of the 10" and the rumble of the 15". I guess I wonder why there are so many 10" cabs on the market when it would seem (to the unlearned like myself) that 12" would deliver bass freq's better.

If all other things are equal with impedence and the amp powering the divers, what is the advantage of one over the other--say a 2x10 cab vs. a 2x12 cab?

[billfitzmaurice]

Originally Posted by totallyfrozen

So, is the 12" driver just a compromise between the tight punch of the 10" and the rumble of the 15". I guess I wonder why there are so many 10" cabs on the market when it would seem (to the unlearned like myself) that 12" would deliver bass freq's better.

Because of assumptions like "the tight punch of the 10" and the rumble of the 15" that aren't the least bit true. Driver size in and of itself doesn't result in either punch or rumble. I think twelves are shunned by most players because they're associated with guitar cabs.

what is the advantage of one over the other--say a 2x10 cab vs. a 2x12 cab?

Tens have wider dispersion, twelves more displacement. Any other judgments are anecdotal based on specific cabs and the drivers they use.

[Johnny Crab]

Depends on the speaker and cabinet specs. You can get cabinets with both IIRC.
For 10's, I prefer these: http://www.acmebass.com/index.html because they are able to do the "low end rumble".

OTOH, a generic 10 vs 12, the 12 should have a lower resonant frequency.
The 10's in the ACME's are special design, power hungry things in well-designed and well-tuned cabinet.

[totallyfrozen]

Originally Posted by billfitzmaurice

...Tens have wider dispersion, twelves more displacement...

wider dispersion of what? air?

[RickenBoogie]

Dispersion of sound waves. And, all else being equal, (which it never is), a 2x12 will be louder than a 2x10. Actually, I've gigged with a 212, but wouldn't consider a 210 to be adequet for my needs.

[Datsgor]

Originally Posted by totallyfrozen

If all other things are equal with impedence and the amp powering the divers, what is the advantage of one over the other--say a 2x10 cab vs. a 2x12 cab?

The difference is that the 2x10 has 110 sq. inches of speaker cone area and the 2x12 has 160sq. inches. With all other specs of the cabinets being equal, (cabinet shape, sealed, ported, , construction materials, etc.) The 2x12 moves more air.

[totallyfrozen]

OK, so I'm not tracking something. If the 12" moves more air, how is it that a 10" would have a wider dispersion of sound waves since those waves are carried via the air? The size alone would indicate that the 12" is a wider cone than the 10" to begin with.

I'm keep this hypothetical with "all other things being equal" to try to contain the comparision to speaker size and its effects. I realize that in REALITY all things are not equal but once ALL the variables are included the conversation gets so far out of a controlled focus that we end up just comparing makes and models.

I'm really trying to understand what noticable difference there is between 10" and 12" speaker cones and what would cause someone to choose one over the other. I'm asking because both are for sale on the market for some reason.

Thanks.

[billfitzmaurice]

Originally Posted by totallyfrozen

OK, so I'm not tracking something. If the 12" moves more air, how is it that a 10" would have a wider dispersion of sound waves .

The angle of dispersion is inversely proportional to the size of the driver. It's not just how much air you move that matters, it's also at how wide an angle that you move it.

[Billy C.]

HI All, All I can swear by is 40 years of experience. The 60's Bass amps mostly came with 12's EXCEPT AMPEG, who used 15's. For what ever reason, the 12's had LESS tone and always blew out when pushed. My early 1966 Fender Bassman Amp constantly was blowing speakers as my 1969 did as well. My 1970 Ampeg B-15 NEVER blew out, but 15's all pretty much sound the same ( It's the cabinet that makes the difference.) When AMPEG came out in 68' with the 10" speakers in the SVT, HOLY MOLY!!! Since then, I have found that 10" speakers have better tone, can handle more power before blowing, and can deliver to any part of the room with audible tone and bottom. I don't know why 10's sound so good, but they do! 12's just don't have the guts or bottom for a bass guitar, UNLESS you are doing a quiet type of music and volume is not a requirement. But 12's seem to sound "farty" as you drive them harder. Once you compare 12's to 10's, I think you'll be sold on the 10's!

[billfitzmaurice]

Originally Posted by Billy C.

My early 1966 Fender Bassman Amp constantly was blowing speakers as my 1969 did as well. !

That was simply because Leo Fender used the cheapest drivers he could find. His only criteria for what he bought was where he got it the cheapest. And he used the same drivers for bass as guitar.
As for all the rest in your post, all true with respect to some specific drivers. But had you used Altec or EV twelves back in the day you'd be saying the exact opposite. It's not the size of the driver that matters, it's how the driver is made, and the quality of engineering of the cab it's loaded into.

[Billy C.]

Hi Again, your point is well taken, however I had the luxury of working at a large music store in Phila. 1969-1972 and was able to replace my Utahs with JBL's. They did not blow out as quickly but the 12's just couldn't match the amazing tone of the newly introduced 10's. Ampeg of course offered the Altecs back then and they sounded good, but an Ampeg B-25B Cab with 2X15 Altecs did not sound as good as SVT cab with the 10's USING the same head to drive both AND the Ampeg V-4 cab with 4X12's didn't compare as well either. When Ampeg introduced those 10's, we ALL thought it was a joke! History and over all sales has proven the test of time.

[MonsterTruck88]

I prefer a 2x12 to both a 2x10 and even a 4x10. You get the low end of 15's with the clarity of 10's... best of both worlds in my opinion.

[totallyfrozen]

Originally Posted by MonsterTruck88

I prefer a 2x12 to both a 2x10 and even a 4x10. You get the low end of 15's with the clarity of 10's... best of both worlds in my opinion.

That's what I was wondering, but we see in this thread that there are quite a few opinions opposed to yours.

Billy C says he can get the clarity and low end with a 10's.

[MonsterTruck88]

Originally Posted by totallyfrozen

That's what I was wondering, but we see in this thread that there are quite a few opinions opposed to yours.

Billy C says he can get the clarity and low end with a 10's.

Well, I think it definitely depends on a lot of factors. My Ampeg 410 HLF provides more low end than say a Hartke VX215. I'm not a sound engineer though all of my opinions are based mainly on personal anecdotal data.

[totallyfrozen]

I'm not an electrical or audio engineer either. I wonder if that difference you're hearing between those two (Ampeg vs. Hartke) has to do with the material the drivers are made of. I don't know what Ampeg uses, I assume it's paper or some synthetic. I think Hartke still uses aluminum for their cones. I would guess that aluminum cones would give it a little more brightness. I haven't played on a Hartke and the only time I've heard them is coming from the bandstand in bars so there's been alot of ambient noises around.

Some of us still prefer 2x15s in a sealed cab to any other. For me, I like that the 15s are a little "slower" in delivery...

I completely disagree with the opinion that "tens" have better tone!

[totallyfrozen]

What I seem to be gathering from all the various input isn't even so much that A has better tone than B or C, but rather than ANY of the standard speaker sizes (10", 12", or 15") can deliver ANY tone. "Tight, punchy" 15's "warm" 10's (or whatever descriptive words you'd like to use). From some things I've seen on TB it seems that I may be considered an idiot for even asking about this. Of course I never claimed to be a know-it-all...just a know-more-than-you (kidding!)
Truthfully, I've never really put much thought into it before. My guitar amp has 1x12" and it's very loud and clear. I've never looked into or asked about speaker sizes vs. tone before.

Like I said, the camps seem to be divided but in reality it looks like they shouldn't be. Overall, it appears that any size speaker can give you any tone provided the rest of the set up (amp & cab design) is adequate.

I guess someone's been making a lot of money off of knowingly misinforming the public. I am fine with having options based on size and weight and that type of thing; however, it seems that for along time the idea that one size speaker gives you a better XXXX-type tone than another size speaker has been marketed and hyped to many of us.

I say this because as far as I can tell, it's solely up to individual opinion and preference. There doesn't seem to be any more to it than that. I've seen alot of debate and discussion on it but I haven't seen anything really convincing one way or the other and I've yet to see anyone from one camp persuade anyone from the other camps to change cabs (or even opinions for that matter).

[maxbass]

Originally Posted by totallyfrozen

If all other things are equal with impedence and the amp powering the divers, what is the advantage of one over the other--say a 2x10 cab vs. a 2x12 cab?

There's no objective superiority of one over the other, the only advantages are due to each own's taste.
I prefer sealed 10" cabs for bass guitar.

[KJung]

Originally Posted by Billy C.

Hi Again, your point is well taken, however I had the luxury of working at a large music store in Phila. 1969-1972 and was able to replace my Utahs with JBL's. They did not blow out as quickly but the 12's just couldn't match the amazing tone of the newly introduced 10's. Ampeg of course offered the Altecs back then and they sounded good, but an Ampeg B-25B Cab with 2X15 Altecs did not sound as good as SVT cab with the 10's USING the same head to drive both AND the Ampeg V-4 cab with 4X12's didn't compare as well either. When Ampeg introduced those 10's, we ALL thought it was a joke! History and over all sales has proven the test of time.

You are confusing cabinet design (sealed versus ported), and brand and quality and number of drivers with driver size.

There are 8" neo drivers made now that generate more low end than the 18" Cerwin Vega's that we all thought were so great back in the day.

You can't apply experience from 40 years ago to what is going on today. Things are SO much better regarding driver design now versus back then that it makes your head spin!

[AlexanderB]

Well, you are right KJung, even if you could have picked a better example than Cerwin Vega.
I guess you refer to the old horn loaded Cerwin Vega for Acoustic? It is a very different animal compared to any modern 8" driver I know of. It is designed for horns and does not need huge Vd to create devastating SPL in the correct cabinet. (More SPL than these newer 8"s would do.)

The slightly newer Cerwin vega 18" Stroker woofers are still a quite good woofer in terms of SPL, distortion, power handling and frequency range, although it is 35 yars old. It has 9-10 mm Xmax and low Qes, making it take real advantage of bass reflex loading. It will require EQ to go really deep, though. There is, AFAIK no 8" driver even close to generate similar output.
I still have a couple of these Strokers and they perform virtually identical to my newest "fancy" 18", Neomagnet, 4" VC, Ciare woofers. (Ciare used to manufacture speakers for Meyer - not sure if they still do.) The Ciares are about 10 kg lighter per driver, though, and that makes a difference when you have a number of cabs to unload.

Not bad for a 35 year old design. (Or you could say that Cerwin Vega made today's kind of woofers in a time nobody else did.)