PA head as a bass head?

[will33]

How are the drums being amplified if at all?

For live performance, probably not a bad idea to start building a PA with the goal of having it carry both of you. The SP-2's aren't bad PA speakers at all. With the addition of a subwoofer or 2, you'd have pretty formidable amplification for the both of you. Or 1 sub and one top makes a bass rig.

[Downunderwonder]

You might want to take a listen to the SP2. Nice enough sound but a big heavy cab. Not what you want for a PA top to use with subs. They can do a good kick drum beater but not thumping bass.

[accidentprone13]

Originally Posted by will33

How are the drums being amplified if at all?

For live performance, probably not a bad idea to start building a PA with the goal of having it carry both of you. The SP-2's aren't bad PA speakers at all. With the addition of a subwoofer or 2, you'd have pretty formidable amplification for the both of you. Or 1 sub and one top makes a bass rig.

We haven't amplified the drums at all yet, haven't played outside of his house, and if we did it'd probably be basement shows and maybe some small bar shows. I do like the idea of a PA for both of us though...

[B-string]

Wait... you haven't left the house yet? Why do you need more power? You may have already exceeded the point of diminished returns and over-powered where you are at. Turning everything you do to mud and loosing all definition.

[accidentprone13]

Originally Posted by B-string

Wait... you haven't left the house yet? Why do you need more power? You may have already exceeded the point of diminished returns and over-powered where you are at. Turning everything you do to mud and loosing all definition.

Not with this band we haven't. We practice as loud as I imagine we'd be playing at a show though, and it just feels like the Hartke can't keep up. I'd like more power to avoid turning everything to mud and losing definition!

[Downunderwonder]

If you get a PA and mic the drums and the drummer doesn't mash them you get to put reverb delays and triggers for special effect sounds on them, loops, live looping, and probably a whole lot more nifty stuff for D'n'B.

[walterw]

Originally Posted by walterw

this is the kind of gig where you need to throw the rules out the window and create a bass wall o' doom!

Originally Posted by Downunderwonder

Nah, rules is rules.

Get yourself a couple of 2x10. Use one of them with PA support.

Originally Posted by Downunderwonder

If you get a PA and mic the drums and the drummer doesn't mash them you get to put reverb delays and triggers for special effect sounds on them, loops, live looping, and probably a whole lot more nifty stuff for D'n'B.

aha!

you're thinking "D 'n' B" as in a more techno-electronic, hi-fi kind of sound; huge low end, but clean, so best provided by a real PA.

i was thinking "lo-fi two-piece rock band", where the bass is doing a distorted "wall of sound" sort of thing to cover the guitar spectrum, too.

blending multiple rigs is a good way to get there, and a "correct" bass tone may not be called for.

[accidentprone13]

Originally Posted by walterw

aha!

you're thinking "D 'n' B" as in a more techno-electronic, hi-fi kind of sound; huge low end, but clean, so best provided by a real PA.

i was thinking "lo-fi two-piece rock band", where the bass is doing a distorted "wall of sound" sort of thing to cover the guitar spectrum, too.

blending multiple rigs is a good way to get there, and a "correct" bass tone may not be called for.

^^^ We're playing sludge metal, so we're definitely closer to lo-fi two piece rock band!!

[Downunderwonder]

Eureka, I'm glad we have sorted that out. I'm all for the grind myself too!

Metal acts with songwriting and musical skills fail because they overdo the lo-fi aural assault with their enthusiasm. It comes unstuck when you add a PA and instead of really loud cool lo-fi sounds you get really loud mud. There isn't much of an audience for really loud mud.

The rules are still the rules. If you are willing to play by them you may go far instead of hitting the glass ceiling that is PA mud. There's more than a few of us who know a thing or three about hi-fi-loud-lo-fi, this should be fun.

Do you have any vocals at the moment? Any desire to add guitar and/or vocals?

[accidentprone13]

Originally Posted by Downunderwonder

Eureka, I'm glad we have sorted that out. I'm all for the grind myself too!

Metal acts with songwriting and musical skills fail because they overdo the lo-fi aural assault with their enthusiasm. It comes unstuck when you add a PA and instead of really loud cool lo-fi sounds you get really loud mud. There isn't much of an audience for really loud mud.

The rules are still the rules. If you are willing to play by them you may go far instead of hitting the glass ceiling that is PA mud. There's more than a few of us who know a thing or three about hi-fi-loud-lo-fi, this should be fun.

Do you have any vocals at the moment? Any desire to add guitar and/or vocals?

Yeah I definitely hear what you're saying.. I do indeed do vocals, probably not adding guitar, but who knows I guess!

[Downunderwonder]

The easiest way to get that happening is inear monitoring for you. Unfortunately the drums won't sound good for you until he is mic'd as well. If you go down that road do not under any circumstances use an IEM in one ear only. That will deafen you faster than anything else you can do.

Meantime drummer is free to hit pretty hard. He would be getting a vocal monitor and your rig blasting him and and hopefully he's sensible enough to use earplugs. You already have a pair of 4x10. Here's the hard bit: he needs to come down to your level, and probably less even, because the vocal PA you'll be using won't keep up. No guitars is a big plus here.

Eventually you'll be doing big house PA, drummer should have IEM and have "energetic not so loud" down pat by then.

Getting ahead of ourselves muchly when you haven't got to playing out yet. You can't beat hitting the ground running though.

How does you drummer feel about hi-fi-loud-lo-fi? We can take him on a very wild ride if he wants to play ball.

[will33]

You can make the hifi sound lofi bit not the other way 'round. The sp2's are fairly heavy boxes but will run loud above 100hz if you let a sub take the bottom. Wouldn't hurt to look around for more manageable tops though.

If you're not out of the house yet, I'd be concerned about hearing damage with what you've got assuming you're using it to it's capabilities.

If you go the PA route, you can manage with a relatively inexpensive set of drum mics. I find the tom/snare mics to be useful enough in most of them. Or use 57's. Look around for a good used kick mic like a D112 or something though. Can use a combination DI + mic on your bass too to get depth + flavor in your sound.

Going the PA route will give you a lot more control over how the 2 of you blend and ooens you up to drum sound effects, etc. Lot more professional and controllable and fuller sound. Can start with a basic board, effects unit or 2, eq, power amp, speakers. Get a board with a few more channels than you think you need to allow for expansion, or 2 smaller boards you can chain together for expansiin, redundancy, submix for the drums, etc.

Coukd incorporate a guitar amp into your bass rig and mic that.

[Passinwind]

Originally Posted by will33

Could incorporate a guitar amp into your bass rig and mic that.

A guitar amp modeler/multi-efx unit works pretty well for this sort of stuff too. You can send it to a guitar cab and mic (better for feedback), or use the speaker modeling section through your PA speaks (better for ambience), or even both. This stuff is all lots of fun for processed vocals too.

The best thing I ever did for my bass/drums duo gigs was get a good sampler. I use a guitar synth to trigger it, but drums or bass certainly can do the job too.

[will33]

Originally Posted by Passinwind

A guitar amp modeler/multi-efx unit works pretty well for this sort of stuff too. You can send it to a guitar cab and mic (better for feedback), or use the speaker modeling section through your PA speaks (better for ambience), or even both. This stuff is all lots of fun for processed vocals too.

The best thing I ever did for my bass/drums duo gigs was get a good sampler. I use a guitar synth to trigger it, but drums or bass certainly can do the job too.

More good ideas.^^

I didn't think about the synths, "ambient + feedback" soundscapes and things. Could get carried away with it all....in a good way.

[Passinwind]

Originally Posted by will33

I didn't think about the synths, "ambient + feedback" soundscapes and things. Could get carried away with it all....in a good way.

Who, me?



That's just the "clean ambience" side of the rig. I also have a three-space slide bass noise toy rack, MIDI switcher w/expression pedal, guitar synth (I switch off from bass sporadically), Fender tube guitar combo w/2 tens, and a separate dead clean, dry bass cab and amp. I try to bring some different combination of all this to each gig to keep it fresh. It's a lot to keep track of though, to say the least.

[barryaudio]

About 15 years ago, I exclusively used a Peavey 6 channel powered mixer (similar to XR series) as my bass amp. It was a bit large, but sounded excellent. I used it for everything from a 25+ piece big band to a 5 piece rock/metal. I would give it a try--you might be pleasantly surprised.

[walterw]

Originally Posted by Downunderwonder

Metal acts with songwriting and musical skills fail because they overdo the lo-fi aural assault with their enthusiasm. It comes unstuck when you add a PA and instead of really loud cool lo-fi sounds you get really loud mud.

The rules are still the rules. If you are willing to play by them you may go far instead of hitting the glass ceiling that is PA mud.

well yeah, there's "cool wall o' bass" and there's "too-loud mix-wrecking rumbly crap".

whatever you rig up, you should be as loud as the drummer, but no louder.

Originally Posted by accidentprone13

Yeah I definitely hear what you're saying.. I do indeed do vocals, probably not adding guitar, but who knows I guess!

now that's gonna mean some discipline from both of you to pull the overall volume back enough for vocals to be heard! it's a trick to make it sound "fat" and "big" without having to be too loud.

Originally Posted by Downunderwonder

The easiest way to get that happening is inear monitoring for you. Unfortunately the drums won't sound good for you until he is mic'd as well. If you go down that road do not under any circumstances use an IEM in one ear only. That will deafen you faster than anything else you can do.

in-ears with a pro sound system are gonna be pretty far down the road from "haven't played out yet", but once you get there, a big +1 to not pulling one earpiece out! that's the way to wreck both ears.

[Downunderwonder]

I don't know much about IEM but lots of guys have them. To my mind that would be the first place to spend money after a vocal PA. You already have enough rig to outdo vocals in small to medium places and once you have IEM you're away laughing.

If you can count on vocal PA where you will be playing multiband shows then you should look into it imho. It will put you way ahead of the other grunge metal acts on your billing with their vocalists unable to monitor themselves, being a mess of peaked out distorted "feckknowswhathessayingbutiknowhesnothappy" in the PA.

It will give you a hard lesson in microphone control, if you don't control the mic you'll clearly hear it turn to garbage in you IEM. Sorry if you're already there, ime few to none metalists have a clue about it, always after the maximum gain from the mic, yelling into it at zero distance.

There is only so much you can do with a compressor and not many metal venues even have one. As soon as they back off their vocal output they get lost in the mix, or they are totally distorted when they get going. You may do well to grab a small optical compressor to put on your mic to help you along.

I'm passionante about rebutting the big obsession with being loud as a loud thing getting in the way of the music. I'm adamament cranked sounds can be done with a hifi approach that lets people appreciate the vocals and all the tones of the all instruments at a volume loud enough to need earplugs in the audience, all with a vocal PA and backline.