PA subwoofer as an add-on to a bass rig?

mactac · #1 12-31-2010, 05:07 PM

I've been looking for ways to get more low-end volume out of my rig lately. I have a 4 ohm speaker, so it's tough to add more speakers (amp doesn't go to 2 ohms).

I saw a PA powered sub for a pretty good deal - 700W 2x10 for $375, and thought that might do the trick. I could send the pre out from the head to the PA sub.

I guess it would be much better if I could crossover the mid/highs to my current 410 so the lows won't 'overlap' with the PA sub, but does anyone have any thoughts on this?

I never see people doing it, but other than throwing the tonal balance a bit off (I'm trying to get more bass anyways, I play reggae), any other reasons not to do this?

here's the sub I was thinking of, great deal on it right now:
http://www.yorkville.com/products.as...&cat=31&id=110

Bassman316 · #2 12-31-2010, 05:08 PM

I'm interested to see what people think about this as well. I was just giving this some thought yesterday- funny you should bring it up today.

Hollywars · #3 12-31-2010, 05:08 PM

I don't really see this working well, I don't know how you'll really be able to use a crossover, and a 410 for highs and mids with a 210 for lows is just kind of counterintuitive.

mactac · #4 12-31-2010, 05:10 PM

The sub has a xover built in - I would send full range from my head out to the 410, and the 210 would filter out the highs by itself.

I imagine that the 10's in the sub are voiced much differently than the 10's in the 410. All 10's are not the same, and there is no real reason why you cannot use 10's in a sub to handle the lows.

Lots of PA subs use 10's in them, and my rig might end up going through a sub anyways if there is PA support. I think of this as just providing my own PA support.

jeffwo · #5 12-31-2010, 06:02 PM

I hope we get some more responses to this from people with the technical chops to discuss it. I was thinking of doing something similar since I want to start playing bass pedals out along with electric bass. i thought maybe a separate powered subwoofer might be the best bet for the pedals, with possibly sending an out from the bass rig to it as well. I'm sure it would probably be best to keep them separate, but who knows for sure, probably something I would need to play around with it in various settings. Lots of PA subwoofer choices out there!

jeffwo · #6 12-31-2010, 06:21 PM

Do a forum search for "powered subwoofer" and you'll get tons of info - reading through alot of it now myself.

This thread in particular has a guy who tried the same 2-10 Yorkville subwoofer and hated it:

Powered subwoofer

OtterOnBass · #7 12-31-2010, 06:36 PM

I do exactly that. I have a Bill Fitzmaurice sub with a built-in passive crossover. When I need the extra power (due to the sub's higher sensitivity down low) I plug into it, and run the speaker in my combo amp off of the high-passed output. That way it's truly bi-amped. The combo amp is louder without the low end limiting it's usable output (i.e. it don't fart out :P )

Running a full-range speaker with a sub is problematic. Your top end speakers will still fart out, and they will also cause bass nulls in the room, where the two bass sources hit and cancel each other.

mactac · #8 12-31-2010, 06:44 PM

i guess I could always run the xover out from the sub back into my head into the poweramp in. Then the 410 would only be running mids/highs.

why would that not sound ok?

Sundogue · #9 12-31-2010, 06:47 PM

A 210 sub crossed over would only need maybe a single 6" mid range driver for the mids and highs.

Not only is a 410 overkill for mids, even a 210 or a single 10 would be (unless the single 10" speaker has very little going for it in the way of low end...then it could be used for the mids/highs, although a 6" mid driver would work best for better mid dispersion).

Speakers designed to handle low end (and yes 10's can) will not be very good in the mids or highs. And the opposite is true as well, one that is a full range speaker will not be as good in the lows.

I actually use a BP102 loaded 210/6 cab using the two 10's for the lows and a single 6" for everything else above 500Hz.

Using a 410 for everything the sub doesn't handle is a waste of that cab. Think of how a PA's mids and highs sound alone. Not very strong are they? Then you bring up the subs and it sounds full. Same thing here. You don't need much for mids/highs.

Nothing wrong with using a powered 210 sub. But using a 410 for the mids and highs has WRONG written all over it for a variety of reasons.

mactac · #10 12-31-2010, 06:49 PM

The issue though is that my 410 is farting out. the 410 might be overkill for the mids'highs, but that doesn't mean it should sound all that bad..?

I'm trying to send the lows to something that is designed to take high wattage lows. I assume a dedicated sub should be, no?

Sundogue · #11 12-31-2010, 06:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mactac

The issue though is that my 410 is farting out. the 410 might be overkill for the mids'highs, but that doesn't mean it should sound all that bad..?

I'm trying to send the lows to something that is designed to take high wattage lows. I assume a dedicated sub should be, no?

Your 410 is farting out from overexcursion of the drivers because they can't handle the low end. So yeah, using a sub would help. But if you use a 410 for the mids/highs (and you would need to crossover between the two cabs) very little will be coming from that 410.

Look...with a 210 sub, you only need a 6" midrange driver in a tiny little sealed cab. But you want to haul a giant 410 along to do the job of a little 6" speaker? Why?

If you don't believe me or you really, really want to haul around the 410 for "looks", get the sub, cross it over at about 500Hz and send every thing above 500Hz (or cross it over at 200Hz even) to the 410 and then turn the sub off and listen to how little is coming out of the 410. But hey, if you want to haul a 410 around for no reason, go ahead.

Personally if you have a 410 it should already handle the low end fairly decently. You must be boosting the lows and playing extremely loud for it not to handle it. What model is your 410 cab?

mactac · #12 12-31-2010, 06:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sundogue

Look...with a 210 sub, you only need a 6" midrange driver in a tiny little sealed cab. But you want to haul a giant 410 along to do the job of a little 6" speaker? Why?

I'm not really worried about the 410, I don't necessarily need to haul it out... I'm more wondering about the sub side of things.

Sundogue · #13 12-31-2010, 07:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mactac

I'm not really worried about the 410, I don't necessarily need to haul it out... I'm more wondering about the sub side of things.

What 210 sub is it?

mactac · #14 12-31-2010, 07:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sundogue

What 210 sub is it?

http://www.yorkville.com/products.as...&cat=31&id=110

bThumper38 · #15 12-31-2010, 07:16 PM

I've got a QSC 700 watt powered sub, and all I can say is it slams. You don't need to run it crossover, what-ever signal you run to it, it's going to send out just the low end. I like to have a seperate volume control so I can set how much low end I want. I'll tell you what you'll never wanna play without it...

Sundogue · #16 12-31-2010, 07:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mactac

http://www.yorkville.com/products.as...&cat=31&id=110

The link didn't work, but the only 210 powered sub I found doesn't really seem like much of a sub. Certainly one I wouldn't bother with.

http://www.yorkville.com/products.as...type=71&id=114

Given the small size for the two 10" speakers, it really will give more of the standard lo-mid hump found in most typical full range bass cabs and is most definitely not a true "sub" except that it doesn't offer much of anything in the mids/highs.

Looks like a typical full range bass cab, but without any content above 100Hz.

While your 410 may be farting out, it should handle the lows equally as well as the 210 Yorkville sub.

Try selling your 410, take the cash from it and the $375 you want to blow on that "sub" and build a fEarful or at least buy the new three way 115 from Avatar. THAT will blow away that Yorkville sub and your 410 easily in the deep lows and all across the spectrum.

Forget the sub. Buy the Avatar. Avatar 3 way 15/6/tweet

mactac · #17 12-31-2010, 07:32 PM

Sorry, it's this one:
http://www.yorkville.com/products.as...&cat=31&id=110

It's 2x250w 10's optimized for bass.

my 410 (epifani 410UL) is farting out because the speakers can't handle the bass at the level it's being sent at.

I imagine that the 10's in the yorkville are optimized for bass frequencies, not like a typical 10 in a bass cab. I would expect that they would fart out less quickly than the 10's in the 410ul2

I'm considering the avatar, but I don't necessarily it will "blow away" what I have now.

Sundogue · #18 12-31-2010, 07:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mactac

Sorry, it's this one:
http://www.yorkville.com/products.as...&cat=31&id=110

It's 2x250w 10's optimized for bass.

my 410 (epifani 410UL) is farting out because the speakers can't handle the bass at the level it's being sent at.

I imagine that the 10's in the yorkville are optimized for bass frequencies, not like a typical 10 in a bass cab. I would expect that they would fart out less quickly than the 10's in the 410ul2

I'm considering the avatar, but I don't necessarily it will "blow away" what I have now.

Still too small of a cab for real deep lows, no matter what it's "rated" for. I'd pass on it.

And yes if your 410 can't handle the deep lows, the Avatar loaded with the Eminence 3015LF will blow it and the Yorkville sub away with deeper lows.

My opinion.

lacroix132002 · #19 12-31-2010, 08:07 PM

Im Curious so forgive me if my question seems out of place. I understand that you are looking to get more lowend Volume out of your rig, but is it because you simply are not loud enough to keep up with other people volume wise , or are you not cutting through the mix well? Assuming you are playing in a band setting.

Johnny Crab · #20 12-31-2010, 08:13 PM

Try these. I'm deciding between the 2 folded horns at the bottom.
I'm not buying an 18" that only goes to 45 Hz. I've done side-by-side with such boxes and the lower frequency with higher or as-high sensitivity wins everytime.
http://www.cheaplights.com/cart/page77.html

I haven't bought yet but I'm not too fond of BOSE "bass" bins(40~140 Hz or something like that) as they don't project IMO like the vertical array of the PAS does. In my case, I'm looking to replace the BOSE "bass" bins with the above box except I've already got power for it so I may go with the unpowered one. Four pluses here for me:
1) Houston is 93 miles away, local
2) The cabinet WILL project lows. I've much experience with folded horns.
3) I've got an amp for it already(QSC) IF I go that route
4) Getting the powered version will save me a bit of setup/teardown time

If the 18 is junk(doubt it but it ain't Cerwin-Vega or JBL), the cabinet is not. My only concern with powered cabinet of any kind is the amp getting hammered all the time with vibration, much worse than being in a rack case nearby.
I have ACME B2's that leave the BOSE "bass" bins in the dust BUT I'd rather drag ONE cabinet around with only power and a line level cord to run to it.