Paring Cabs

[grass132456]

So let's say I get a 115 cab.

So later on in life, I find out that a 115 cab is not enough power, so I want to pair it up. So, If I were to pair up with a 115, should I get another 115? a new 210? or a new 410? To pair up with the 115? What are the pros and cons of each?

[silky smoove]

Matching cabs, for reasons outlined at least 50 times on this board in the last two days. Give a look and you'll find plenty of reasons to go with matching cabs.

[RickenBoogie]

+1 matched cabs ALWAYS work better than mixing. It is getting old as often as this topic gets kicked around.

[BassmanPaul]

Never pair a 4x10 with any single cone cabinet. As advised identical cabinets are always the best way to go.

[cchorney]

Rabble Rabble Rabble

Now go and match your damn cabs!

[Russell L]

Adding a 115 to my 112 combo didn't work, so now I'm on to getting another 115. Already got a separate head.

[Joe Louvar]

Originally Posted by grass132456

So let's say I get a 115 cab.

So later on in life, I find out that a 115 cab is not enough power, so I want to pair it up. So, If I were to pair up with a 115, should I get another 115? a new 210? or a new 410? To pair up with the 115? What are the pros and cons of each?

You should ask this question in this thread ~
Big Cabs Club II: The Big Cabs Strike Back!

Originally Posted by hrgiger

Finally! A place where those with big cabs and big rigs of doom can go and not have to endure the well-identified pesky grampas whining about "where could you possibly ever really need that?" Ah, the peacefulness and tranquility of the BCC...

And here are some quotes from Mixing Cabinets and Phase Response.

Originally Posted by Benjamin Strange

Ok, this is starting to get a bit ridiculous. You experience phasing issues all the time, as you move while you play. Phasing issues between two cabinets will change dependent on your position in the room, movement through the stereo field, etc., etc., etc. There's too much splitting hairs going on here.

I'm all for trying to get the best sound possible, but there are far too many people splitting hairs over such trivialities - and there's no shortage of unscrupulous companies out there who prey on such obsession. Sure, having charts and graphs objectively dissecting your sound can be helpful, but let's not gnash our teeth over it. <snip>

Originally Posted by MrTAteMyBalls

so, to clarify, if you were to use a crossover and run each cab with a different set of frequencies you would not have the phasing issues???? i dont plan to mix different cabs, but it's still good info to have.

Originally Posted by billfitzmaurice

+1. Phase is of no consequence if the system has only one phase response, it's when you have different phase responses competing with each other that things get muddy. If each driver set operates within its own frequency bandwidth there's no problem.

Plus some people don’t know or forget cabinets can be bi-amped and phasing can be reversed and when speaker cabinets are stacked vertically - say two incidental 1x15s sometimes the stack will sound better if you invert the phasing 180 degrees - same with placing speaker cabinets side-by-side.

With all that said - I've use 10s over 15s and loved it but I like matching 15s best.

[silky smoove]

You seem to have a misunderstanding of phase cancellation issues. Hitting the phase switch on a board would not account for the issue described in all, or even most cases. Additionally, how many bass amps/preamps have a phase switch? Are you suggesting that people rewire their mismatched cabs to be out of phase with each other as a way of fixing the problem?

Regarding biamping: yes, that does allow for different cabs to be used within their own respective frequency ranges, and eliminates phase issues. That said, how many bass cabs on the market today are designed for biamping? Using a pair of full range cabinets for biamping typically makes one cab work too hard (ie the low end cab), and one be too much can to do the job (ie the mid-high content).

[Joe Louvar]

Personally I use two 1x15 combo’s so I have separate power amps and EQ driving each speaker cabinet and I use a Lehle P-Split Splitter and it has a phase button.

[silky smoove]

Separate EQ's and power amps will help, but if both combos are running full range, you're still operating different cab in the same bandwidth. I can't imagine any combo being designed for biamping, you're likely running into problems I mentioned above.

The reality is that if it works for you, then by all means continue using and enjoying it. That said, it's not a strategy I would suggest to anyone and expect consistent results.

That's the aspect that is frequently missed in these topics. It's not whether or not something works, it's whether or not a practice yields consistent results or not. Vertically aligned matched cabs is the most consistent way to get good results regardless if another method happens to work some of the time.

[billfitzmaurice]

Originally Posted by silky smoove

Separate EQ's and power amps will help, but if both combos are running full range, you're still operating different cab in the same bandwidth. I can't imagine any combo being designed for biamping, you're likely running into problems I mentioned above.

The reality is that if it works for you, then by all means continue using and enjoying it. That said, it's not a strategy I would suggest to anyone and expect consistent results.

That's the aspect that is frequently missed in these topics. It's not whether or not something works, it's whether or not a practice yields consistent results or not. Vertically aligned matched cabs is the most consistent way to get good results regardless if another method happens to work some of the time.

+1. There are a half dozen reasons why matched cabs vertically stacked work well, none in favor of mixed cabs and/or biamping with cabs that aren't specifically designed for it.

[Joe Louvar]

I didn't say my setup is bi-amped. I wish you lived near me - I’d love to do a speaker cabinet shootout and record it and video tape it too.

[jnewmark]

Originally Posted by silky smoove

You seem to have a misunderstanding of phase cancellation issues. Hitting the phase switch on a board would not account for the issue described in all, or even most cases. Additionally, how many bass amps/preamps have a phase switch? Are you suggesting that people rewire their mismatched cabs to be out of phase with each other as a way of fixing the problem?

Regarding biamping: yes, that does allow for different cabs to be used within their own respective frequency ranges, and eliminates phase issues. That said, how many bass cabs on the market today are designed for biamping? Using a pair of full range cabinets for biamping typically makes one cab work too hard (ie the low end cab), and one be too much can to do the job (ie the mid-high content).

There is of course the GK cabs , although some might argue that it is not really bi amping. The only other production cab I know of that can be run full range, or biamped, is the Carvin LS 1503, which is actually a PA cab, but popular with bass players.

[jungleheat]

A cab does not have to be "specifically designed" for bi-amping. What a bunch of BS. As long as each cab has a strong response in the range you need it, and enough power handling to reproduce that frequency range at the volumes you need it at, and sounds good doing it, it should work just fine in a bi-amp setup.

Now obviously, it's theoretically possible to get better results if everything is designed to work together, but it's not strictly necessary, and there's no "rule" that says that a speaker HAS to be "designed" for biamping (unless you're talking about bi-amping within a single cabinet).

And regarding matching vs non-matching cabs, I think this is one of the biggest myths here at TB. I'm not saying the science behind it is a myth, I'm saying the importance of the science in this application is SEVERELY overstated. As already mentioned, phasing issues happen EVERYWHERE (literally). I think the only way you're likely to hear sound that doesn't have any phase distortion is if you were completely deaf in one ear, sitting in an anechoic chamber, and listening to a pure sine wave from one speaker driver. As soon as you change one of those variables, you're going to have both phase cancellation and reinforcement. And those will change as you play different frequencies and/or move around the room (in relation to the speaker/s).

Using all matching cabs could reduce some of the phase changes before all that other stuff comes into play, which could certainly have a positive effect. OR you could just as easily be undoing phase changes that could even have a positive effect tonally.

People don't understand that MI amplification is a funny thing. It's not necessarily linear/flat/perfect/etc..., in fact, it's usually not any of those. Guitar cabs roll off after about 4-7KHz, and if they didn't it would sound like crap (record a distorted guitar from the line out of the amp and listen back on studio monitors if you don't believe me). The "perfect" tones we all love were all created using imperfect means, which is why trying to recreate them using clinical means is a pointless and futile task.

By all means, if you have one cab that you love the tone of, get another one. Then you will have the same exact tone, just 3db more of it (plus whatever advantage you might gain running a lower impedance load on your amp, which probably isn't much).

BUT, if you're like most of us and find that 1 cabs gives you a little of this, and another cab gives you a little of that, if you like the way they sound together, go for it. The most important part is the sound, the audience isn't going to be listening to phase response charts at the gig or in their car while your CD is playing.

Unfortunately this means the best advice is just to try out a bunch of different options with your current setup and see what works best FOR YOU. 2 15s can be a cool sound, a 15 and 2 10s can be cool sound, 4 10s can be a cool sound, etc... Out of the 4 cabs I have, my favorite setup is the Trace 1x15 and matching 2x10. The 15 has deep, powerful, low end and lower mids, but rolls off pretty fast higher up. The 2x10 is the reverse of that. Neither is perfect on their own, but together they are pretty magical (and that's without a tweeter, but they still get a pretty "full range" sound). I love my vintage Carvin 15 too and it's got a great overall sound and I wouldn't mind having 2 of them. But it lacks the intense low end the Trace has. The 2x10 is kind of thin by itself, but with the deep and warm Trace 15 that becomes an asset rather than a liability.

[Joe Louvar]

Originally Posted by Russell L

Adding a 115 to my 112 combo didn't work, so now I'm on to getting another 115. Already got a separate head.

If you are going to run two amps and two 1x15s simultaneously checkout the Lehle P-Split Splitter.

[silky smoove]

Jungleheat: you clearly missed my paragraph about consistency. Read it again for best results.

[greenboy]

Pearing:



Phasing:



Polarity:

[jnewmark]

Those Polar bears look drunk.

[billfitzmaurice]

Originally Posted by jungleheat

And regarding matching vs non-matching cabs, I think this is one of the biggest myths here at TB. I'm not saying the science behind it is a myth, I'm saying the importance of the science in this application is SEVERELY overstated.

IMO no one who understands the science of acoustics would make that statement.

[Joe Louvar]

Originally Posted by grass132456

So let's say I get a 115 cab.

So later on in life, I find out that a 115 cab is not enough power, so I want to pair it up. So, If I were to pair up with a 115, should I get another 115? a new 210? or a new 410? To pair up with the 115? What are the pros and cons of each?

Watch what happens to this thread now - it could to go downhill really fast so I’m leaving the thread before it explodes. Good luck with whatever you get and God bless.