playing places without a PA

runmikeyrun · #1 03-03-2011, 02:12 PM

How much sound reinforcement do you use when you play a place without PA reinforcement for bass? I'm talking vocals only PAs. I'm going to be playing mostly house shows and DIY venues with small PA systems. I currently have a pre/power amp setup with a 4x12. I have the capability to push 600w through one 4x12 or 1200w through 2 (i haven't assembled the other 4x12 yet).

I play our first show Saturday with my single 4x12. From my experience one 4x12 might or might not be enough, depending on the size/shape of the room. We play in a decent size practice spot with high ceilings, and I think i'm pretty loud, but I hate getting through the first song at a show to have someone tell me to turn up when it's already all the way up!

I am competing against 2 half stacks- a 5150 and a pre/power amp setup good for a couple hundred watts. Pretty loud to say the least. Would you guys spring the $275 for speakers so I can have two cabs, or do you think it's not necessary?

BTW I like to be heard and felt. I prefer more of a Rush/Maiden style mix on our records. I'm not a background bass player.

bobostein · #2 03-03-2011, 02:17 PM

I like the idea of 2 cabs but what do I know, I'v never played a gig

jelwood · #3 03-03-2011, 02:22 PM

I have one neo 412 and it puts the stacks to shame. You should add in the second cab just to make the guitarists cry.

Phantasm · #4 03-03-2011, 03:07 PM

If one 4x12 is not enough, you've got a serious problem. There should be no reason that volume is an issue.

The way we rolled back in the days when I'd take a gig with "vocal only" PA was that we would play together and have someone stand in front of the stage and say "turn up, turn down" to each person until the mix was right but the drums were still audible.

Then everyone has to leave their volumes set and not move them. Vocal is mixed in for the PA and you're set.

elavate7 · #5 03-03-2011, 03:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phantasm

If one 4x12 is not enough, you've got a serious problem. There should be no reason that volume is an issue.

The way we rolled back in the days when I'd take a gig with "vocal only" PA was that we would play together and have someone stand in front of the stage and say "turn up, turn down" to each person until the mix was right but the drums were still audible.

Then everyone has to leave their volumes set and not move them. Vocal is mixed in for the PA and you're set.

i agree!!! 600 watts through a 412 should be more than enougth for any gig really.....if you cant be heard, then your guitarist need to turn down before someone goes death....

**jlepre** · #6 03-03-2011, 03:16 PM

Get a wireless setup to walk out front from time to time and check the levels. We used to do that and we ran our own sound from the stage for years.

MysticMichael · #7 03-03-2011, 03:24 PM

Isn't this more of a "Live Sound" forum type of question?

MM

TC2112 · #8 03-03-2011, 03:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phantasm

If one 4x12 is not enough, you've got a serious problem. There should be no reason that volume is an issue.

The way we rolled back in the days when I'd take a gig with "vocal only" PA was that we would play together and have someone stand in front of the stage and say "turn up, turn down" to each person until the mix was right but the drums were still audible.

Then everyone has to leave their volumes set and not move them. Vocal is mixed in for the PA and you're set.

this ^

you guys are a band and should be working together. It's not a contest. If the room is small enough that you only need the vocals in the PA, the rig you have is plenty. Set your volumes to the level of the acoustic drums (and sometimes that is too loud in small rooms). Even if your guitar player or players can drown out everything, they shouldn't. Tell them to get over the ego and work from the volume that works for the band and quit trying to peel peoples faces off

MysticMichael · #9 03-03-2011, 03:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by runmikeyrun

I am competing against 2 half stacks- a 5150 and a pre/power amp setup good for a couple hundred watts. Pretty loud to say the least. Would you guys spring the $275 for speakers so I can have two cabs, or do you think it's not necessary?

Using two (2) 4x12 cabs indoors - unless it's Madison Square Garden - is insane. Same thing with a 200-watt guitar rig.

For regular club gigs, downsize to a reasonable level - one 4x12 bass cab for you, no more than a 50-75 watt 2x12 rig for each of your guitarists. Save your big rigs and excess cabs for the outdoor shows, and invest in a real PA system that will accommodate all your rigs (plus mikes from the drum kit).

MM

spaz21387 · #10 03-03-2011, 03:33 PM

I think you are set on volume... Im running a 6x10 with a hartke ha2500 250 watts into a 6x10 cab and it kills... on 2 the volume is as loud as my guitarists 100 watt marshall half stack.

TC2112 · #11 03-03-2011, 03:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spaz21387

I think you are set on volume... Im running a 6x10 with a hartke ha2500 250 watts into a 6x10 cab and it kills... on 2 the volume is as loud as my guitarists 100 watt marshall half stack.

so....is that 12 tens?

KTFunkAlive · #12 03-03-2011, 03:46 PM

I agree with everyone. You need to play to the kit otherwise you'll drive people away.

There is nothing more off-putting than a way to loud band.

**Chef** · #13 03-03-2011, 03:53 PM

My bands use two Bose Sticks and two bass bins for our DIY PA. We run vocals only thur them.

Depending what guitar player shows up, for which of my 3-4 bands, I can get by with one 2x8 cab with the nice guy, or, one 410 cab with the loud guy.

jeff7bass · #14 03-03-2011, 04:19 PM

I went to a jazzy/fusion gig and saw a great bassplayer get by on one ACME, 10” cab with no PA support. He sounded great.
Smallish gigs need only vocal support and perhaps a touch of bass drum and snare. With that, a good 200w head into a single 2x10, 1x15, 4x10, or 2x12 should be enough for the gig.

modulusman · #15 03-03-2011, 04:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MysticMichael

Isn't this more of a "Live Sound" forum type of question?

MM

No. The live sound forum is for PA questions. There are already too many clueless posters starting threads that don't belong in the live sound forum.

GrowlerBox · #16 03-03-2011, 04:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by runmikeyrun

How much sound reinforcement do you use when you play a place without PA reinforcement for bass? I'm talking vocals only PAs. I'm going to be playing mostly house shows and DIY venues with small PA systems. I currently have a pre/power amp setup with a 4x12. I have the capability to push 600w through one 4x12 or 1200w through 2 (i haven't assembled the other 4x12 yet).

I play our first show Saturday with my single 4x12. From my experience one 4x12 might or might not be enough, depending on the size/shape of the room. We play in a decent size practice spot with high ceilings, and I think i'm pretty loud, but I hate getting through the first song at a show to have someone tell me to turn up when it's already all the way up!

I am competing against 2 half stacks- a 5150 and a pre/power amp setup good for a couple hundred watts. Pretty loud to say the least. Would you guys spring the $275 for speakers so I can have two cabs, or do you think it's not necessary?

BTW I like to be heard and felt. I prefer more of a Rush/Maiden style mix on our records. I'm not a background bass player.

If you can hear yourself above the rest of the band, the problem may be that your 4 x 12 is beaming all the mids and highs directly out in front, with little or no dispersion across the room. There may also be an issue with where you place your cabinet on stage -- try moving it around during sound check. Lack of power would not appear to be the problem

.

lowfreq33 · #17 03-03-2011, 05:02 PM

I'm running 500 watts into a 2x12, and I've never been short on volume.

mcapote · #18 03-03-2011, 05:18 PM

my GK-MB210 keeps up with my guitard and drummer doing 80s metals covers. if not I have a 15 I can pop on for another 200watts, but havent needed to. it pretty much is going to come down to your guitard if he is using a vanhalen setup then you need to double up on him if he plays with a 120watt combo then you can match him with a 300watt cambo of the same cone area

runmikeyrun · #19 03-03-2011, 06:47 PM

I'm just nervous that i'm going to be underpowered. I used to play live with an 8x10 and 2x15 being pushed with 1200w and sometimes I still struggled to be heard over a wild drummer and super loud guitarist.

As for those that don't understand the whole "louder is better" thing, I guess it's just that- you don't understand it. It's not BAD that you don't understand it, you just don't. The kids need all that volume to get worked up and beat the crap out of each other

GrowlerBox · #20 03-03-2011, 08:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by runmikeyrun

I'm just nervous that i'm going to be underpowered. I used to play live with an 8x10 and 2x15 being pushed with 1200w and sometimes I still struggled to be heard over a wild drummer and super loud guitarist.

As for those that don't understand the whole "louder is better" thing, I guess it's just that- you don't understand it. It's not BAD that you don't understand it, you just don't. The kids need all that volume to get worked up and beat the crap out of each other

Then why ask? Sounds like you've already decided you're going to be underpowered, despite every opinion so far expressed here being to the contrary. Looks like you'd better get cracking on that second 4 x 12

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