plea to bass amp manufacturers

Thelawnranger · #1 01-23-2011, 09:39 AM

Gentlemen,

For the last few days I have been trying desperately to find some video via You Tube, your website, Talk Bass and anything else I try to Google up on what your equipment might sound like to a regular bass player. I live in eastern North Carolina and the closest dealer to me is 2 1/2 hours away and of course they do not not have anything new in stock.
There is a profound thread on Talk Bass titled "Confessions of a flatwound user " where after 30 years of playing in a rock band he has figured out trying to emulate Geddy Lee only works in Rush etc.. Maybe 98 percent of bass players aspire to playing bass as a solo instrument but what does that have to do with playing like most of us do? Hey I wish I was good enough to play in a soul band but that probably wont happen.
I am sick of listening to 100mph bottomless slappers and wondering where am I going to use that in a Brad Paisley song. I play contemporary Christian in a Southern Baptist Church stuff like Lincoln Brewster, Fee, Isreal Houghton plus songs that are a lot tamer. I play BASS ,we regular guys need to hear the sounds we need if you expect us to buy off the Web.
We will spend the money but I want to here it first and not have to sell it on E bay and take a 40% beating!
Give us a decent spread and not just with Sadowskys, MTD's and Foderas
surely you've seen some Fender or Ibanez basses laying around the plant let's hear em on your web site recorded with something better than a Blackberry. I doubt you would have any problem finding somebody that would love to star in your demo videos with their groups and I emphasize groups to hear what we need to hear, the mix. Check out the Mesa website, they have got it going on.

will33 · #2 01-23-2011, 10:16 AM

I can empathize with not being able to try before you buy, problem is they're going to sound different through each cheap little pair of computer speakers they're listened to through and even the best system still won't sound like it does in person. Yet another arguement for honest specs, the ability to interpret honest specs and of course, 30-day return policies.

JimiLL · #3 01-23-2011, 12:05 PM

Listening through little computer speakers is better than not listening at all.

I second this...... my thoughts is they may shy away from this because it can take all the mystique away from their products.

I was a lot more interested in MESA gear until I heard some recordings on the internet, for example

will33 · #4 01-23-2011, 12:14 PM

Good point about the "mystique". I just think it'd be too hard to translate how "big and badass" some companies stuff is supposed to sound through a computer. They probably get more mileage out of sponsoring somebody's favorite rockstar even if their equipment may rarely and sometimes never even be in the actual signal chain, live or recorded.

greenboy · #5 01-23-2011, 12:45 PM

You are not just hearing computer speakers - you are hearing an entire recording signal chain, and the large effect of a particular room's effect on response nulls at microphone position.

Better than nothing? Just barely, if at all. For speaker enclosures anyway. For preamps or better yet basses that can be recorded direct it's more possible to get sampling that's untainted by a room and signal chain influence. Problem there is people don't often get to hear other bases or preamps in such pristine and un-affected conditions so it's kind of a catch 22.

On the other hand, I live in the sticks, and have done a lot of successful purchases without ever searching out sound clips. I've also in the past made pilgrimages as far as 600+ miles (Bass Northwest) to audition lots of stuff. This was after research, and it worked out great too. For amps I recommend this, because there can be a big "feel" element to amps.

username1 · #6 01-23-2011, 12:47 PM

I understand your frustration. I get the same frustration everytime i go to utube to hear what an amp sounds like and every guy on there is snapping and poping which all sounds the same to me and i cant find very many videos with someone just playing through the amps i want to hear.

Daniel Piper · #7 01-23-2011, 01:32 PM

I have been really impressed with TC Electronics YouTube presence. Has led me to order a classic 450.

JimiLL · #8 01-23-2011, 01:45 PM

Ed Frieland has a great take on this.....

Also, I think all sounds should be made direct un eq'd to the board, to get the purest possible signal.

Kind of reminds me of all the towing certifications cars and trucks are going to have to take in the future. Manuf. have to prove that their product will do what they say it will.

Until someone puts a gun to the head of amp companies (like SAE did with car companies) I think this is gonna be on the wish list for quite a while

IngerAlb · #9 01-23-2011, 02:28 PM

+1

They seem to invest in research, production, even some advertising through specific channels, and yet they can't bother to upload some decent videos of their products.

The thing that really ticks me off though is uploading videos in which they simply present the features, without actually plugging the damn thing and let it roar. I mean, why do I need to hear all that, since the product manuals are online, instead of a short sound demo?!?

**mwesth** · #10 01-23-2011, 02:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daniel Piper

I have been really impressed with TC Electronics YouTube presence.

+1

Calaverasgrande · #11 01-23-2011, 03:06 PM

As a recording engineer I 'd like to chime in here. Recording bass guitar with an amplifier is one of the harder things to do in recording. There is quite a difference between our perception of what bass guitar sounds like and what it does played through an amplifier. For instance you get very different bass response in different kinds of rooms. Whether you are on a concrete floor or up on a wooden stage. When you close mic a bass amp you often get far too much upper midrange that you dont want.
So getting an accurate representation of what an amp sounds like is a trick. Best case scenario you have a very nice condenser mic about 2-4 feet way from the amp a little off center from the cone. The room has a concrete floor and the walls are far enough away not to interact with the amp too much. Hopefully you have a decent mic pre. I like the Summit pres a lot for bass. But a Grace would be good too. Limit or compress it to even out the frequency-volume lumps if there are any. By this time you have a usable track but it will require eq. I almost never get away without EQ-ing a bass track.
So you get the idea, it can be some work just to get a bass sounding decent from a bass amp. Likely why 80% of the time we want to DI the bass. Most youtube videos I see of amps they are run at bedroom level. Which may be nice to see what the functions of the preamp are, but give no idea of the sound of the amp in a band context.
It does kinda suck. Bass is a very difficult instrument to get sounding good in a band. Guitarists are not as nearly dependent on room acoustics and cabinet variables.

**nostatic** · #12 01-23-2011, 03:31 PM

So for those that want the amp manufacturers to do something, how many videos have *you* put on youtube demoing your current gear?

The reality though is that due to so many variable (mostly the nut behind the bass), it can be very hard to demo an amp out of context. About the only useful info to me is when a player goes back and forth between different amps/cabs/basses. At least in that case you have some contants (same player, same signal chain, hopefully same licks) and can compare one vs. the other. But it still doesn't tell you much about how it will work in your hands and in your context. Experience helps. Having a good online retailer who understands the needs of a player and has a decent return policy (eg Rocket Music) can help as well.

IngerAlb · #13 01-23-2011, 04:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nostatic

So for those that want the amp manufacturers to do something, how many videos have *you* put on youtube demoing your current gear?

The companies that make music gear are doing it as a business; they're in to make money. It's their job to make demo videos for their products, not the buyer's / consumer's. Do you see many commercials on tv that were created and/or financed by normal consumers?

The topic is not about ppl not showing their stuff on YouTube, it's about the companies that don't respect their potential clients enough to go the extra mile and make some darn videos about their products.

And one more thing: because of that they do lose clients - one of the main reasons some brands are virtually unknown is just this: not being able to find any review/demo over the Internet, which keeps the ppl that can't test their stuff in person away. And I'm talking from personal experience...I've recently decided to get a Kustom cab. I could have done this a few months earlier if more reviews or videos were available...not all bassists live in US so they could benefit from a good returning policy; in other parts of the world the offer is very limited and ppl can't simply buy stuff at random and hope to score big, so they limit instead to the stuff they can test in the local guitar shops. That's why those video demos would be important - some of us are forced to order via Internet most of the time, without previous testing. For us, even a crappy video is better than nothing.

pasta4lnch · #14 01-23-2011, 04:41 PM

I know a couple of pedal companies started doing this - I always wanted to try a carbon fiber acoustic guitar. they've always interested me - I found a place that's doing a road trip w/ it - for $35 I get it for a week. pack it back up and ship it off to the next guy (shipping is in the price)

I think that's a cool way for cab companies (really any company we discuss here) to showcase their products. Or I've even seen a few companies do taste testing parties etc. I think w/ the overwhelming amount of small companies now making gear this is a fairly inexpensive way to get your products out to the masses . . . in this case "we" are a small mass so it'll work better than any advertising they probably can afford.

I'd pay even $50 (being cabs will be a bit heavier) or even coordinate w/ local dealers for pick-up etc, for a week trial . . .

just my 2¢

PDGood · #15 01-23-2011, 04:59 PM

+1 with the OP - I share your frustration. And it is do-able on some level, although admittedly it would be very difficult. For example, would you run all the amps through the same speaker cabinet or would you use a cabinet that is made by the same manufacturer as the amp?
I'd be inclined to use the same speaker cab.
And yeah, I get all the variables, and it wouldn't be perfect or ideal comparison. But I think you could get some sort of benefit, and when you're gather info to make a purchase every bit helps.

But imho, the amp builders are not really the best ones to do this because they will never compare to other amps. It needs to be a neutral third party who has access to the gear and a reason to go to the trouble (like dealers who want to make a sale). You see a lot of drum videos done this way (music store in Memphis is one). And yeah, they go to a lot of trouble, but just the website alone is probably worth the advertising for them (I had never heard of them previously, so they reached me easily enough). It's good PR.

GrowlerBox · #16 01-23-2011, 05:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IngerAlb

...some of us are forced to order via Internet most of the time, without previous testing. For us, even a crappy video is better than nothing.

As someone who lives outside the US (and even if I didn't, I believe most people in the US don't live near a good bass gear store

), I couldn't agree less. A crappy video is much worse than nothing, and for all the reasons noted by Greenboy earlier. I get far more useful information from those here, for example, who can provide an opinion supported by their reasons for holding it (i.e. not this: I HATE MARSHALL MB SERIES ) following some time spent with the item in question, or a solid understanding of the available specifications, and preferably both. We are very fortunate to have a good number of frequent contributors to this forum who do this on a regular basis, and I take full advantage of them.

BassDudeSA · #17 01-23-2011, 05:11 PM

Trying to judge the sound of an amp or a bass through a video is ridiculous. I have seen all these videos and they tell me nothing about the sound. The musician affects the tone more than anything. The volume and tone settings on the bass, the amp, the acousitcs, the recording equipment. You just cannot tell. For that matter, going into a music store and trying out an amp is better, but that on it's own is practically useless as well. I have tried many basses and amps alone in a solo setting, then when playing the same equipment with a band, and seeing how it blends, is completely different than how you hear it playing solo.

The only true way to grasp the sound of a piece of equipment is to use it in the same setting you are buying it for. Want to hear an amp? Borrow or rent it and bring it to rehearsal, the gig or whatever. Anything less is useless. I've learned as much in 30 years of playing regularly.

IngerAlb · #18 01-23-2011, 05:18 PM

...unless nobody (or so it looks) plays the specific gear you're hunting for. Like I said, I was forced to buy my DE410 without actually testing it in person and I wasn't able to find any video with the cab in action - except for some NAMM small presentation videos of the DE line without the cab plugged in and 2 or maybe 3 short reviews from Musician's Friend - which I don't consider to be a reliable source of info. Next I'll be interested in actually hearing the DE300 Head - but guess what: there's no video for that either!

So...of course there are a lot of variables that may affect the overall tone or performance of a certain product, but I'm not asking for a max quality sample, just asking them to actually turn the thing on and run a presentation while tweaking the stuff.

GrowlerBox · #19 01-23-2011, 05:19 PM

So now that you have it, what do you think?

**nostatic** · #20 01-23-2011, 05:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IngerAlb

The companies that make music gear are doing it as a business; they're in to make money. It's their job to make demo videos for their products, not the buyer's / consumer's. Do you see many commercials on tv that were created and/or financed by normal consumers?

Frankly, I trust the TB community more than I would trust any manufacturer's video. As noted elsewhere, doing sonic demos is problematic at best. I'd rather see actual users offering their take on the gear. If enough people do it, you can get a true spectrum of data and try and make sense of it. Some company does a slick promo video with who knows what for post production and some wizard playing, most people will go, "wow." But it doesn't reflect the reality of what happens when the amp gets in the customer hands.

Now, would these videos provide a "value-add" for the company? Maybe. People are swayed by advertising, and it is just another form. But coming up with some arbitrary "standard" for manufacturers to follow when creating their own advertising? Ain't gonna happen. Cost/benefit ratio ain't there.