Plz help w/new Sunn cab...

[NNuSSuNN]

I just inherited a Sunn Coliseum Lead and 2x15 cab. I took the cover off the cab,and there's 2 different JBLs inside. One is a K130 w/blue JBL logo @ 8 ohms. The other one is a D130-F6 Signature Series. It has a round port on the magnet with a screen. That one says its 16 ohms! Which one is stock? I tried posting pictures but I don't have a computer. Can't seem to post pix from my phone. How can I post the pictures? I can't understand why there's different ohms on the 2 15s. The cab has a rectangular port between the 2 speakers. Which Sun cab is this. Kinda don't wanna plugin the Coliseum Lead to the cab till I know whatzup. I'm so happy to have a real amp. Whats the best way to get all the dust offa the speakers? Is there anyway to incorporate my new Acoustic B200h & Acoustic B115 cab into this monster? It's 8 ohms. I'm kinda lost. Please help.....

[billfitzmaurice]

I wouldn't use that cab for bass, it's a guitar cab loaded with guitar drivers. As for the different drivers, a previous owner must have replaced one with the wrong impedance.

[NNuSSuNN]

So the K130/D130 JBLs are not bass speakers? And does anyone recognize the Sunn cabinet I described as a bass cab,or is it a guitar cab?

[christw]

Those are not bass speakers. Try doing a search on google to find out the differences. We can't tell for sure without pics or dimensions but I'm going to guess that Bill is right. (He usually is.)

[NNuSSuNN]

Bless u all for the replies. I'll see what I can find.

[christw]

I feel like I should have specified a bit more there. The K140 and D140 were used more for bass. The 130's had less xmax (the speaker had less possible travel) and could take less power so they were less suited for bass use IIRC. That's why we said it's probably a guitar cab.

[edbass]

It's going to depend on what those speaker actually are. The K series was never offered in a Sunn cab, so there has been at least some swapping going on.

Except for the heavier framed K145, as far as the frames and motors (except the K's are black and the D's are gray) those old AlNiCo JBL's are the same speakers. The differences between the various 130 (guitar) and 140 (bass) series are in the cone, VC and suspension, not the cast parts.

Back in the days of AlNiCo JBL's reconing drivers was almost like regular speaker maintenence, so it really depends on what the cone kits are in your drivers as the what they actually are. The easiest way to tell is by the cone surface; 130 cones were smooth and 140 cones were ridged.

Sunn 2x15's came with both D130F and D140F JBL's, the "F6" means 16 ohm, and would be standard with a cab that probably came as a pair of cabs from the factory. In those days you couldn't buy an amp without a cab (or two) from Sunn, they were "matched sets". And yes, generally the D130F loaded cabs were paired with guitar amps, however there are those that have used the 130's for bass over the years, in my experience they sound nice and "round", but get real "flabby" real fast and won't take much juice before they start "farting".

The Sunn Forum is probably the best place to get Sunn specific info, particularly with the old stuff, your cab is probably a 1967 or 1968.

[NNuSSuNN]

I'm wonderin if someone put a guitar speaker in a bass can. Are the JBLs 130 a guitar speaker? It's a 16 ohms signature series. But I couldn't spot this cabs configuration in the Sun archives that I found. It's a plain front facing 2 15s with a rectangular port right in the middle of the 2 speakers. From side to side about 6-7 inches wide.

[NNuSSuNN]

Wow. That was excellent edbass. I knew someone would know. This guy knows his stuff! But 15s for a guitar? I'm hoping the cab is bass cab. I was trying.g to find the configuration in the Sunn catalogs online,but no luck. I figured 2 15s woulda been a bass cab. Will I have a problem with one being 8 & one being 16 ohms? Thanx.

[NNuSSuNN]

Oh,edbass is correct. Both the K&D 130s are smooth cones. Good man....

[edbass]

The D130 was a low frequency/full range speaker, commonly found in theater installations and high end Hi Fi cabinets in the 50's and 60's, sometimes used with a high frequency compression driver, sometimes not.
In the 50's Leo Fender began using them in his guitar amps (I think they were in a Bassman 2X15 cab also in the early 60's), but they kept blowing up.
So... I've heard conflicting info, but I believe they were modified to take more power (and survive "ham handed" installation techniques by Fender assemblers) by increasing the VC clearance and stiffening the surrounds, and the D130F was born. I think Harvey Gerst was the JBL designer that actually designed the upgrade, and he posts here occasionally. Maybe we'll get lucky and he'll chime in.
The D130 F then got a stiffer ridged corrugated cone, a copper voice coil (better heat conduction but heavier and less responsive to high frequencies) and the D140F was born, generally used for bass applications.
The 130's were commonly used for, and are probably better suited for guitar as the 140's were for bass, but it's not an "absolute".

Does your Sunn cab look like this?



That's a 200S bass cab, but in 1967 and 1968 the same cab configuration was used for some Sunn guitar amps.
Figure out how to post pictures of your cab, I think that’s the only way to get more specific to your questions

[NNuSSuNN]

Wow...edbass. U da man! Thats it. %100. So its a bass cab with the smooth cone ,guitar JBLs. They're probably ok for bass if u don't blast it,right? What do I do about the ohms difference?

[billfitzmaurice]

Originally Posted by edbass

The differences between the various 130 (guitar) and 140 (bass) series are in the cone, VC and suspension,.

And that's what counts. Xmax of the D130 and K130 is .76mm, which is only good for about 15 watts before farting out. That's perfect for guitar, so that they'll go to crunch mode at low volume, not so good for electric bass. Each doubling of xmax quadruples the power that may be applied before farting out. Xmax of the K140 is 5mm, the E140 3.6mm.

As for the D130F, that was originally arrived at for Dick Dale, not electric bass. The 'King of the Surf Guitar' was toasting standard D130s long before Jimi plugged into his first stack. It differed from the D130 of the 60's because that original D130 was in fact a hi-fi speaker, and the D130F was a guitar driver, not bass. This from the mouth of Harvey Gerst, who designed the D130F as well as the K and E series.

[NNuSSuNN]

Thanx. This is great. I'm tryin to digest all this. My concern now is what precautions should I take since the K130 is an 8 ohm,& the D130F6 is a 16 ohm?

[christw]

The Lead is a solid state head. You don't need to worry about transformer taps and mismatched impedances or any of that jazz that you would with a tube amp. Your cabinet is going to be rated at 5.3 ohms as it sits (if the speakers are in parallel) and the K130 is going to get twice the power from the head that the D130 will, literally. (That's because of the impedance mismatch.) You really don't want to crank it into the speakers as both are worth some decent dime on eBay.

However, if you want to toy with it at safe (low) volumes, it's perfectly fine to plug up and fiddle. No damage will be done to the amp.

[NNuSSuNN]

My man,thanxsalot. Didn't know if there were any tubes in the ColiseumLead. It's good to know i can't do too much damage if I don't blast. It was wonderful to see a picture of my cab with no speakers.
Id never sell them since they were a gift,but how much is each worth? I got home withit last night & nearly cried! I didn't have second cable for the amp so I couldn't play through it. How important is it to use non-shielded speaker wire? Van the year of the head and cab be determined from the serial #s?

[NNuSSuNN]

I'm lookin at the picture,and there's 1 handle. Mine has three on the same side staggered left to right top to bottom. So its a 200s? Is sure like to meet the knucklehead that put a 16 ohm speaker in there. Id assume the 8 ohm is the original?

[christw]

Originally Posted by NNuSSuNN

My man,thanxsalot. Didn't know if there were any tubes in the ColiseumLead. It's good to know i can't do too much damage if I don't blast. It was wonderful to see a picture of my cab with no speakers.
Id never sell them since they were a gift,but how much is each worth? I got home withit last night & nearly cried! I didn't have second cable for the amp so I couldn't play through it. How important is it to use non-shielded speaker wire? Van the year of the head and cab be determined from the serial #s?

Why not sell the speakers in it and replace them with appropriate drivers? (Like K140's?) That would make it a gift and useful!

Using a speaker cable is very important because standard instrument cables aren't made to handle the kind of current that an amplifier can dish out.

As for the serials, probably. Do a couple of searches on Sunn serial number dating or Sunn amp dating on google. It'll probably be pretty easy from there.

[edbass]

Originally Posted by NNuSSuNN

Wow...edbass. U da man! Thats it. %100. So its a bass cab with the smooth cone ,guitar JBLs.

Originally Posted by edbass

That's a 200S bass cab, but in 1967 and 1968 the same cab configuration was used for some Sunn guitar amps.

You may well have a guitar cab, as I originally posted Sunn offered the cab with a pair of D130F's in 1967-68. In 1968 and later Sunn had the D130F JBL's private labeled as a "D15S".
Same speaker though.

Originally Posted by NNuSSuNN

They're probably ok for bass if u don't blast it,right? What do I do about the ohms difference?

A 16 and an 8 ohm driver in the same cab isn't catastrophic, but it's far from ideal. Your Coliseum will easily handle the combined load @ 5.3 ohms but 2/3 of it's power will be going to the 8 ohm driver.
I would put the speakers on a multimeter and see what's actually going on impedance wise (well, DC resistance wise).
As I posted reconing and "mix and match" JBL's were not at all uncommon from cabs in that era, you need to see if there is indeed a mismatch going on.
As far as being OK for bass, well that's up to your ears. You should be able to tell when the drivers are saying "uncle", it will be that thumpy, farty sound you hear when you get too loud, and if the impedance is mismatched the 8 ohm driver will be the one that gives up first.

Originally Posted by billfitzmaurice

As for the D130F, that was originally arrived at for Dick Dale, not electric bass.

I think I already established that the primary use was for guitar.

Originally Posted by edbass

In the 50's Leo Fender began using them in his guitar amps (I think they were in a Bassman 2X15 cab also in the early 60's), but they kept blowing up.

Originally Posted by billfitzmaurice

The 'King of the Surf Guitar' was toasting standard D130s long before Jimi plugged into his first stack. It differed from the D130 of the 60's because that original D130 was in fact a hi-fi speaker, and the D130F was a guitar driver, not bass. This from the mouth of Harvey Gerst, who designed the D130F as well as the K and E series.

Hmmm, I thought I covered the D130 history too.

Originally Posted by edbass

The D130 was a low frequency/full range speaker, commonly found in theater installations and high end Hi Fi cabinets in the 50's and 60's, sometimes used with a high frequency compression driver, sometimes not.

Also, here’s a direct quote from Mr. Gerst, his answer to a question about whether Dick Dale had any influence on the development of the D130F;

Question
“Dick Dale seems to be the one claiming Fender went to JBL on behalf of him. In "Fender Sound Heard Around the World" he's quoted as saying the "F was invented as a result of melting voice coils & destroying surrounds". It's also stated that "the aluminum dust cover was Leo's idea". In his 9/96 GP interview he talks of the 'Dick Dale' kit available from JBL which includes a larger magnet, larger voice coil, thicker wires, aluminum dust cover, & rubberized front rim which brings the speaker (presumably a D130) up to Dick Dale & Fender specs! I'll be 'kind' and say that he comes off as 'a bit arrogant' in the interview!”

Harvey Gerst’s Answer
“I never had the honor of meeting or talking to Dick Dale, so I'd have to say that perhaps his memory has been clouded by the passing years. It's true that the JBL F series was partly about improving the current 2 models being used by Fender and others, namely the D130 and D131. It was my proposal to expand the line of speakers and at the same time, make some refinements to those speakers”

As is my belief, The D130F was designed by Harvey Gerst a musical instrument upgrade of the D130, and was generally and primarily used for guitar applications, but prior to the introduction of the bass specific D140F I think was indeed used for some bass guitar applications, probably most notably a Fender Bassman cab in (I think) 1962 or 1963.

Originally Posted by christw

As for the serials, probably. Do a couple of searches on Sunn serial number dating or Sunn amp dating on google. It'll probably be pretty easy from there.

There is no serial number dating for Sunns AFAIK, and I've done more than a "little" reseach on Sunns.
A picture is worth a thousand word, if you post a picture on the Sunn forum you'll get a pretty accurate date estimate.
Also, most of the time there is a date written in grease pencil inside the cab somewhere.

[NNuSSuNN]

I posted a few times in the Sunn forums and nobody replied. Mostly,what do I got and how can I post pix outta my phone,and didn't get any replies. Id love to show u guys this Sunn rig. How would I post pix Ive taken with the phone? I Aint got no computer! I don't have any accounts with photobucket/Picasa typa sites. My Android phone only let's me"share" pix with all the assorted Picasa,Facebook,Twitter,etc. Never signedup for that nonsense! Ne1? ......