poor sound quality at gig volumes, please help.

[richtea]

Hi Guys I am looking for a bit of help regarding sound quality, I say sound quality because "farting" sounds to strong and its not distortion, well not a desirable distortion sound anyway, it kinda just sounds cr*p. Alot of you have really good experience and knowledge and i would be very greatful for any comments.

First my rig.

Genz Benz GBE750 head in a one U rack case. EQs set around 12o'clock or less. lower gain than master, issue is the same using either fet or tube pre amp channel.

Genz Benz 4x10 8ohm 400w (dont know what model, says nothing on the cab just the ratings)

Messa Boogie 1x15 8ohm 500w
.
I also use an AKG wireless and a Boss GT10 multi effects.

My problem is this, when playing at medium volume say 20% of the heads output, all is right with the world, clean and warm. When I get up to gig volume say 45-50% the rig starts to sound like a cheap practice amp on the edge of armageddon.
I have tried eliminating the GT10 and wirless, changed leads, used four different basses, unhappily no change. I do use the passive setting on the amp even though my basses are active because i use the preamps in cut rather than boost, and the output is matched to my passive back up bass.
I used to use the 410 with my Genz neopack 3.5, its about 3 years old and I had a similar issue when i first started playing with this band, and played three or four gigs with the neo / 410 rig, they are louder than i usually play and picked up the GBE750 and 115 to cope, but thought it was because the amp was running too high (nearly max, with the cliplimiter on).
Is it possible that the speakers are worn or damaged in such a way that it only shows up at higher volumes? oh, the messa 115 is a couple of months old.
Or am i looking in all the wrong places.
any comments surgestions would be warmly appreciated.
Richard

[JimmyM]

you're just playing louder than your rig can take. if you want to play that loud, i'd ditch the 115 and get another 410. it's all about speaker area and displacement, and a 410/115 just won't move air like two 410's.

[richtea]

Originally Posted by JimmyM

you're just playing louder than your rig can take. if you want to play that loud, i'd ditch the 115 and get another 410. it's all about speaker area and displacement, and a 410/115 just won't move air like two 410's.

Oh my poor back / bank account, I've just finnished a period of profesional therepy for GAS. Was just getting used to the portability of the 115 too. The shop I got the 410 from still has the other matching 410, they brought them in as a pair, might give them a ring and see if i cant bring in mine and run a test, LOUD!
I dont want to play that loud by the way, just cant seem to get the others to back it off, verrrry irritating actually. I play in two other bands whos gig volume is nearly half. This is the first band i have needed ear plugs for, the punters love it though, and thats what matters.
I also have an issue with winding gear up in shops, somthing I will have to get over, sick of buying kit that cant cut it at higher volumes. The choice out here (cape town) is limited too. Thanks for the imput, i will give it a go.
Richard

[Wes Whitmore]

Are you clipping the GB750 output?

Using multiple identical cabs is the best way to get loud. Since the 410 is the only thing that really hasn't changed, make sure it can go loud by itself without sounding bad, and check for creased cones by the surround.

I don't fully understand why you are cutting the bass' EQ, but boosting the amp's EQ, but maybe I'm confused. I would set everything to flat, and put it back after you figure out the issue.

Wes

[Mike Dimin]

Richard,

make no moves until you try your bass in the active input. You might be clipping the input section and triggering the limiter on the amp (I assume the GB750 has a limiter)

[dbase]

Originally Posted by JimmyM

you're just playing louder than your rig can take. if you want to play that loud, i'd ditch the 115 and get another 410. it's all about speaker area and displacement, and a 410/115 just won't move air like two 410's.

+1 .. what he said

[richtea]

Originally Posted by Wes Whitmore

Are you clipping the GB750 output?

Using multiple identical cabs is the best way to get loud. Since the 410 is the only thing that really hasn't changed, make sure it can go loud by itself without sounding bad, and check for creased cones by the surround.

I don't fully understand why you are cutting the bass' EQ, but boosting the amp's EQ, but maybe I'm confused. I would set everything to flat, and put it back after you figure out the issue.

Wes

Thanks Wes, The clip limiter is on, but the light does not come on at these volumes, the amp is really only running at about 1/3, but its hard to estimate with the preamps and channel blends.

I think I will pull the grill off the 410 and have a good look and see if anything jumps out at me. looking through the grill I cant pick any thing up that looks out of the ordinary.

I cut the bass eq to match the output level of my passive back-up bass, so if I need to do a quick change I dont need to run around re-setting every thing, I dont use a huge amount of eq, really most of it is pretty flat, The 12 o'clock position on the benz EQ is flat as its a cut/boost. I really just use it to dial in a room, or more correctly, try and dial in a room. I will try and flatten it compleatly see if it makes any difference.
For about two months I was actually laying the blame for this at the feet of my fave bass an early 80's JayDee mark king. I thought old age and iffy early 80's electonics may be to blame but then I did some recording and it sounded superb and I fell in love all over again.

[richtea]

Originally Posted by Mike Dimin

Richard,

make no moves until you try your bass in the active input. You might be clipping the input section and triggering the limiter on the amp (I assume the GB750 has a limiter)

Thanks Mike, I will give it a shot. That would be a really cheap solution.

[nysbob]

Just for grins try running the master all or most of the way up and just use gain for necessary volume.

[richtea]

Originally Posted by nysbob

Just for grins try running the master all or most of the way up and just use gain for necessary volume.

belive it or not, the only other genz player in cape town had the same tip, but sadly no improvement. Thanks for trying anyway.

[Growly Lytes]

Sounds like your pushing her to much thats all !

[Mike Dimin]

As the former Director of Sales and marketing at EA Amps, I can tell you that 90% of the issues we received calls and emails about had to do with the signal chain and not the amp.

[JustOpenYourMind]

What are the guitar players rigs? might give an idea about what you are competing against.

Sometimes if you want to get clean really loud bass, you just need lots of speakers and power.

[Wes Whitmore]

That's a nice amp. If you haven't, read the manual again.

http://www.genzbenz.com/img/manuals/gb/GBE750.pdf

If it was me, I would just go through some tests to find out what's going on.

Plug your active bass in the active input. It looks like it pads -10dB compared to the passive setting. Turn the bass' volume knob all the way up (if it's a clean output), and leave the EQ knobs at 0.

Just use the FET channel only for now. Set the FET channel's EQ strip to 0, and bypass all of those contour buttons. Set the FET channel knobs so they are high but not clipping.


Just use 1 cab for now. The 410 should be louder, and I'm curious of it's ability to get loud and stay clean anyhow.

Turn off the limiter if you can for now. Turn up the master volume. The manual says it sounds best between 9 and 3. Not sure what happens above and below that figure. Keep an eye on that clip light on the output stage. I could get the GBE600 to clip pretty easily at 4 ohms. The 750 isn't much bigger on paper. If you are clipping the output, it's going to sound bad.

If you got that far and it sounds good, then it's something beyond those settings that are causing issues and you should be able to isolate them.

That amp is so flexible with it's dual inputs, dual preamps, dual EQs, limiters, and contour buttons that I think it's just a good idea to bring it all flat and see what you get...

[pgullo64]

How are you wiring the speakers? If you are wiring in series (plugging one speaker into the other then connecting to the amp, then you are running at 16 ohms whitch is out of the range of this amp and you would only be sendning 200 watts if the amp was rated there. If you are wiring parallel, (plugging each speaker directly into the amp) then you are drawing 4 ohms - make sure you have your impedence switch set at 4-8 ohms. At 4 ohms you are pushing 625 watts - should be plenty.

[Wes Whitmore]

Originally Posted by pgullo64

How are you wiring the speakers? If you are wiring in series (plugging one speaker into the other then connecting to the amp, then you are running at 16 ohms whitch is out of the range of this amp and you would only be sendning 200 watts if the amp was rated there. If you are wiring parallel, (plugging each speaker directly into the amp) then you are drawing 4 ohms - make sure you have your impedence switch set at 4-8 ohms. At 4 ohms you are pushing 625 watts - should be plenty.

That's not series, it's a "diasy-chained" parallel connection.

[agedhorse]

How does the rig sound with just the 410 cabinet?

The first thing I would chech is the polarity of all of the speakers in your system. It's possible that the 15" cabinet is wired reverse of the 410, or that one of the drivers in the 410 is reversed. We see this occassionally where a speaker was repaired and somebody goofs with the wiring when reinstalling.

To test for this, take a 1/4" speaker cable and a 9 volt battery, plug one end of the cable into the first cabinet and momentarily touch the tip of the plug to the "+" terminal and the sleeve to the "-" terminal. All speakers should move outward. If any move backwards, that driver is either wird backwards or has an open voice coil and is moving due to air pressure equalization. Do the same for the other cabinet.

In fact, this is a good thing for everybody to do once in a while, or when adding a new piece of gear to the stable. This kind of thing is more common than you might expect.

[pgullo64]

Wes, you are correct - sorry I didn't realize most bass cabs have parallel jacks.

However, the OP should check to make sure the impedance switch is set to 4 -8 ohms. If it is set at two ohms the amp will limit at higher volumes.

[agedhorse]

With the impedance switch on the amp set to 2 ohms, the amp will not limit but the rated power will be about 25% lower than in the 4/8 ohm position.

[Zolbol]

Peace out richtea.. Just wanted to give a shout out from Margate!!!

Other than that if alll else fails get another 410..

Rock it!!