power amp/pre amp route

[hachi kid]

so, I'm possibly looking to switch over to a rack setup, and I know there are people here that know way more about separate power/pre amp setups that I do. thanks to dual outputs, I run two amps going to two separate cabs. I'm also getting an LDS cab built. it will be a 4x10+6.5"/1x18 fridge type cab, and I think the rack setup with power/pre amp setup would be the best for what I'm trying to achieve. I don't know what is what in terms of this world, though.

for the bottom end, I'm looking for 1000 solidstate watts @ 4 ohms to drive the 1x18. I won't ever use all 1000 watts, I just need the head room to cleanly reproduce the solid lows I'm going to be pushing. not sure about pre-amps. just something that produces good, solid lows.

for the top end, I would like to go all tube. I currently use a Peavey Valveking 100 guitar head because I like the way a bass sounds through an all tube guitar head. so, I'd like to reproduce this. I know Carvin makes an all tube power amp. would there be any other all tube power amps out there? and I really have no idea what to look for as far a pre-amps. I'd like a tube pre-amp, if possible, with at least two switchable channels to go from clean and overdrive. I know about the Voodoo Labs pre-amp, but I also know how crazy expensive it is. I'm open to buying used gear if it's out there, too.


anyway, I hope I can get some direction as to what's out there and who makes the product, and who makes a good product.

[Jim Carr]

A (two channel) QSC or Crest power amp is a good bet. Some of the older models are HEAVY, but can be had used for fairly cheap. Since you are considering tubes, why not get a high quality tube Pre-amp, like a Demeter instead of a tube power amp? I think it will give you a huge amount of tube goodness and help you keep the complexity of your rig more manageable, i.e. you could stick to a single power amp--using channel A for the 118 and B for 410.

100 watts to drive the 410 seems skimpy, IMHO, especially since you are considering 1000 watts @ 4 ohms to be a goal for the 118. Actually, I think having a couple of channels of 900 or so watts might really be more than you can use, but if you really want head room, the 900 watts per channel at 4 ohms of a Crest CA-9 will give you oceans of headroom.

[hachi kid]

the 100 watts would have been all tube, though. I know 100 watt tube amps are stadium loud, and I figured that would carry over into the power/pre amp stuff. would the solidstate power amp affect the tone of it? I'm also going to be running a dual stage compressor to compress both signals. I'm running it similar to Billy Sheehan's setup where he has dual outputs, dual amps, and dual cabs (one EQ'd for lows, one EQ'd for mids and highs) running simultaneously. what about a Carvin DCM3000L with two Sansamp pre amps (or similar product) in front of it? I would have to rely more on pedals to get the overdrive and fuzz "channels" and would actually get rid of the tube sound I'm looking to keep. or is there a pre-amp "box" like the sans amps that would produce a similar sound? If I can get the same "sound" with a dual channel power amp as I could with the other setup, but have it smaller, I'd be up for that, as well.

[hachi kid]

also, would I HAVE to have a pre-amp? or could I essentially just get a parametric EQ and a power amp?

[interstatejoe]

I used to run my 810 in stereo - top 410s got sansamp bddi as a pre running effects thru ch1, bottom 410s got the clean signal from bbe bmax pre thru ch2. Sounded huge until I upped the ante and snagged a 2nd 810...then it sounded MASSIVE

[warnergt]

Originally Posted by hachi kid

for the bottom end, I'm looking for 1000 solidstate watts @ 4 ohms to drive the 1x18. I won't ever use all 1000 watts, I just need the head room to cleanly reproduce the solid lows I'm going to be pushing. not sure about pre-amps. just something that produces good, solid lows.

You're thinking like me. Preamp for tone and a more-than-necessary
1000 watts of solid state, clean, linear amplification. That's why I'm
camped out on the Peavey IPR 3000. American Musical Supply claims
it will be available next week. $399 for two cool-running class-D 1000
watt channels into 4 ohms.

Originally Posted by hachi kid

for the top end, I would like to go all tube.

Well, this is where our thinking diverges. I know a lot of people like
tubes and that's OK with me. However, personally, I don't consider
them necessary and I believe they are too unreliable. I'm down on
tubes right now because it seems that they always crap out at an
inconvenient time. I'm going all solid state.

[Jim Carr]

I don't think I can advise you, except to say a simple well-understood signal path has been my path to good tone. Less is not only more, IMHO, it is a way to remove barriers between the musician, the music, and the listener.

[Jim Carr]

Oh yeah, forgot to mention that for most players who use a pre-amp and power amp into one or two cabinets, the signal chain is:

Bassist -> Bass -> (optional) pedal(s)/DI -> Racked Pre-amp -> Power amp -> Cabinet(s)

You seem to be proposing:

Bassist -> Bass -> (optional) pedal(s)/DI -> Preamp 1 -> power amp 1 -> cab 1
" -> " -> (optional) pedal(s)/DI -> Preamp 2 -> power amp 2 -> cab 2

Do you see the doubling of function as a doubling the result? This looks costly. Spend the money on free time to practice, compose, perform, organize, smooze, and make love!

[Sten]

Originally Posted by hachi kid

also, would I HAVE to have a pre-amp? or could I essentially just get a parametric EQ and a power amp?

The output of your bass is too low to drive the poweramp directly, so yes you HAVE to have a pre-amp.

What type of venues do you play? If your setup is for stage monitoring, then bi-amping seems like a total overkill for me. Sure you can do it for the kicks, but you have to deal with the weight and cost issues. Not to mention 2-3 microphones in front of your cabinet.

[Sickneedhelp]

Originally Posted by warnergt

You're thinking like me. Preamp for tone and a more-than-necessary
1000 watts of solid state, clean, linear amplification. That's why I'm
camped out on the Peavey IPR 3000. American Musical Supply claims
it will be available next week. $399 for two cool-running class-D 1000 watt channels into 4 ohms.

Ummmm..... apparently we still have old specs somewhere. Rated power for the 3000 is now 840 watts @ 4 ohms and 1,490 at two. Peak & music power remain at the original level.

Due to all the parts shortages delivery was pushed back a bit. 3000's will be leaving the factory in 10 days.

The good news is that the servo added to the 3000 does a really nice job of controlling cones. Those who like the 1600 are really going to like the 3000. The better news is they only weigh 1/2 lb more and cost only $100 more.

Hope I didn't cross the sales pitch line too much

[hachi kid]

hm. I totally would like to go this route because it seems affordable and lightweight. I have some questions, though. the reason I was wanting to keep the top end all tube was because in the past, I've made the switch from solidstate (crappy Marshall Marshall MG100HDFX) to a Peavey VK50 combo. by themselves, there wasn't a whole ton of difference, but with the rest of the band playing, the top end cut through a whole lot more and was a lot more present in the mix. I'm curious if this is because of the "tube sound", or if this is due to it just being the crappy solidstate Marshall. also, the poweramp/dual Sansamp RPM route seems good, but I'm not sure about the tone I'd be getting. does anyone have any experience with the Sansamp RBI or RPM? either in the mix or not?

second question, about the Peavey power amps. do you make power amps that make over 1000 watts @ 4 ohms?

[Sickneedhelp]

Originally Posted by hachi kid

............. second question, about the Peavey power amps. do you make power amps that make over 1000 watts @ 4 ohms?

CS4080Hz = 2040 watts per channel into 4. Or you could bridge a CS4000 and get 4000 into four. Ditto externally bridge the IPR3000 for a bit under 3kW @ 4.

[taurus1]

Originally Posted by hachi kid

so, I'm possibly looking to switch over to a rack setup, and I know there are people here that know way more about separate power/pre amp setups that I do. thanks to dual outputs, I run two amps going to two separate cabs. I'm also getting an LDS cab built. it will be a 4x10+6.5"/1x18 fridge type cab, and I think the rack setup with power/pre amp setup would be the best for what I'm trying to achieve. I don't know what is what in terms of this world, though.

for the bottom end, I'm looking for 1000 solidstate watts @ 4 ohms to drive the 1x18. I won't ever use all 1000 watts, I just need the head room to cleanly reproduce the solid lows I'm going to be pushing. not sure about pre-amps. just something that produces good, solid lows.

for the top end, I would like to go all tube. I currently use a Peavey Valveking 100 guitar head because I like the way a bass sounds through an all tube guitar head. so, I'd like to reproduce this. I know Carvin makes an all tube power amp. would there be any other all tube power amps out there? and I really have no idea what to look for as far a pre-amps. I'd like a tube pre-amp, if possible, with at least two switchable channels to go from clean and overdrive. I know about the Voodoo Labs pre-amp, but I also know how crazy expensive it is. I'm open to buying used gear if it's out there, too.


anyway, I hope I can get some direction as to what's out there and who makes the product, and who makes a good product.

I run a rig that might be up your alley. I use a 100w Marshall Super Lead into a 4x12, this covers low mid and up, I then go into a Yamaha PB-1 pre amp (you can find them as low as $50.00 used) which has an adjustable crossover, this goes to a subwoofer, sometimes a 1x15, sometimes a 2x15, 8x10 etc.
nothing beats a 100w or even 50w guitar head to add mids and grind (if that's what you're into) to your sound. if you're getting a Valveking, I'm pretty sure it has a line out, you could even use that out to a power amp. if you want your lowend clean though, you'd be better off with a separate pre amp.

[ed1caron]

@Hachi

I used to run a setup similar to what you're describing.

Me -> Bass -> Sansamp RBI -> Compression Ch 1 -> Amp Ch 1 -> Cab 1
|
Aguilar Agro -> Compression Ch 2 -> Amp Ch 2 -> Cab 2

The RBI can get tubey, but wasn't quite my taste. My pedals ran through the RBI fx loop. Agro (to me) had a better (than the RBI) tubey growl. All in a 6u rack

RBIs new run about $329, and a few used ones are out there. Agro about the same price.

[interstatejoe]

Originally Posted by ed1caron

@Hachi

I used to run a setup similar to what you're describing.

Me -> Bass -> Sansamp RBI -> Compression Ch 1 -> Amp Ch 1 -> Cab 1
|
Aguilar Agro -> Compression Ch 2 -> Amp Ch 2 -> Cab 2

The RBI can get tubey, but wasn't quite my taste. My pedals ran through the RBI fx loop. Agro (to me) had a better (than the RBI) tubey growl. All in a 6u rack

RBIs new run about $329, and a few used ones are out there. Agro about the same price.

Just curious, do/did you run the Agro pedal or rack?

[hachi kid]

I actually already have an SWR Workingman's 4004 for the "low" amp, and a Peavey Valveking 100 for the "high" amp. I have dual outputs on my bass, and essentially run two separate signal paths at the same time. the reason I'm wanting tubes is because it's a lot more present in the mix and cuts through really well. if there is a solidstate thing that will do that as well, I'd love to go that route due to it being lighter and more reliable.

the kind of sound I'd like to get it something like Geddy's live tone, but also get a clean tone (multiple channels). I know he used a Sansamp RBI then switched to the RPM, but he also has a dedicated tech guy and also runs his signal right through the P/A, so I'm not sure if I'll be able to get the same result.

[ed1caron]

I ran the rack, with pedal control (on/off) on my board.

Both RBI and Agro have been replaced due to gas.

Originally Posted by interstatejoe

Just curious, do/did you run the Agro pedal or rack?

[ed1caron]

You can get close using the RBI/Agro, but I always thought Geddy's sound would be better achieved with an RBI/RPM...

2 feeds to the board, and you're in business.

Originally Posted by hachi kid

I actually already have an SWR Workingman's 4004 for the "low" amp, and a Peavey Valveking 100 for the "high" amp. I have dual outputs on my bass, and essentially run two separate signal paths at the same time. the reason I'm wanting tubes is because it's a lot more present in the mix and cuts through really well. if there is a solidstate thing that will do that as well, I'd love to go that route due to it being lighter and more reliable.

the kind of sound I'd like to get it something like Geddy's live tone, but also get a clean tone (multiple channels). I know he used a Sansamp RBI then switched to the RPM, but he also has a dedicated tech guy and also runs his signal right through the P/A, so I'm not sure if I'll be able to get the same result.

[mcrracer]

You may want to reconsider using 18s. It does not require large , heavy, awkward speaker boxes to get the lows you are looking for. You also do not need large speakers. It also does not require any where near 1000 watts if you are using good efficient speakers. One subwoofer with a 10" or a 12" will give you all the chest thumping lows you could want with less than 500 watts. I use a sub with an 8" driver at my smaller gigs and people are amazed at the sound and can't believe that "little bity box" is doing all of that.
http://www.billfitzmaurice.com/autotuba.html
http://www.billfitzmaurice.com/T39.html
http://www.billfitzmaurice.com/T48.html
http://www.billfitzmaurice.com/T24.html
Pair up one of these subs with this speaker and have a biamped rig that kills!
http://www.billfitzmaurice.com/DR250.html
I have no affiliation with BFM, Just a very happy owner of several of these cabs.

[Jim Carr]

Originally Posted by mcrracer

You may want to reconsider using 18s. It does not require large , heavy, awkward speaker boxes to get the lows you are looking for. You also do not need large speakers. It also does not require any where near 1000 watts if you are using good efficient speakers. One subwoofer with a 10" or a 12" will give you all the chest thumping lows you could want with less than 500 watts. I use a sub with an 8" driver at my smaller gigs and people are amazed at the sound and can't believe that "little bity box" is doing all of that.
http://www.billfitzmaurice.com/autotuba.html
http://www.billfitzmaurice.com/T39.html
http://www.billfitzmaurice.com/T48.html
http://www.billfitzmaurice.com/T24.html
Pair up one of these subs with this speaker and have a biamped rig that kills!
http://www.billfitzmaurice.com/DR250.html
I have no affiliation with BFM, Just a very happy owner of several of these cabs.

+1

Size matters not.