Pre/Power setup - put a DI box between pre and amp? Benefits?

[mikeddd]

My signal chain is: Bass-->FX pedals-->Shuttle 6.0-->AmpsFX loop out-->Power amp-->Avatar 212

My power amp is plenty beefy (QSC PLX3602 and before that, QSC GX5). I find that I have to keep the gain on the power amp maxxed and the gain/volume on the Shuttle at 50% to get appreciable volume. If I want it loud enough to compete with drums, electric guitar, singer through PA, I have to dime out the volume on the Shuttle.

I would think it should get a lot louder a lot earlier. My problem seems to be not a hot enough signal leaving my preamp to feed the power amp. There is nothing wrong with the quality of the sound; it's full, low-noise and beautiful. It's just not loud enough. All my cables are shielded with Neutrik ends. No problem there.

I was thinking of putting a DI box (Radial mono DI box) b/t the pre and power amp. Like this: Shuttle FX out (unbalanced)-->DI box-->DI XLR out-->Power amp

Would I get a hotter signal that way? What are the positives and negatives? Good idea or bad?

Thanks for your help.

Mike


ps
I use the FX loop out of the amp to keep the DI out free for PA use. I have not tried the Shuttle's DI out into the power amp...honestly b/c I'm afraid it will work perfectly. I know that sounds strange, but I really want to keep the DI for PA/recording console. Thanks!

[JimmyM]

have you tried pulling the effects out and going straight in to see if you get more volume that way? not sure if the shuttle's loop attenuates volume, but it might.

seems like you're really complicating your life by using a separate power amp with the shuttle when it has a perfectly good one built in, though. should be plenty to power any 212.

[xed]

Have you tried using the tuner out to get signal from your Shuttle to your power amp? If the effects loop out signal appears to be low then maybe the tuner out is hotter. Worth a shot.

[mikeddd]

Hmm, I have not tried the tuner out. That's a neat idea; I will do that tonight. Though I'm pretty sure the tuner out is pre-EQ...that could be an issue.

Good point, JimmyM. The Shuttle 6.0 is fairly beefy. The main reason I went with a power amp setup is because I'm planning on adding another cab (my 212 is 8-ohm); though I honestly don't need the other cab right now. Just trying to be proactive. I don't gig a whole lot so portability isn't a huge factor. It's all in a 6U Gator case and is fairly light anyway. Besides; 1,400 watts is a little better than 600 watts. You don't always have to swing Thor's Hammer, but it's nice to know you can if provoked.

[derrico1]

Jimmy's right on it. Find out what the problem is in the chain by first running bass-->Shuttle-->cabinet.

Let's assume that works with plenty of power. Now put your pedalboard back in front of the Shuttle. Are the pedals set to unity gain? You might just be dropping gain through your pedal settings. If not --that is, if pedals+Shuttle work fine--in your shoes I'd just keep the extra power amp out of the chain.

[JimmyM]

Originally Posted by derrico1

Jimmy's right on it. Find out what the problem is in the chain by first running bass-->Shuttle-->cabinet.

Let's assume that works with plenty of power. Now put your pedalboard back in front of the Shuttle. Are the pedals set to unity gain? You might just be dropping gain through your pedal settings. If not --that is, if pedals+Shuttle work fine--in your shoes I'd just keep the extra power amp out of the chain.

ya, thor's hammer is great if you're looking to slaughter villages. but with a 212, it's the equivalent of using thor's hammer to crack open a hard boiled egg

ok, maybe it's not overkill to that degree, but still...

[HATe410]

i run Bass-> Line6 Bass PODxt Live (unbalanced) -> Crown XLS1500 -> 525w Markbass Std.104HF + 300w G-K 210BLX......and is like yours, my Gains are all over the place mostly maxed, then the Crown is maxed just to cut through....and yea i use plenty mids on my patches.....alot of other forums have suggested a balanced signal a-la a DI box.....I havent tried it either tho cause its gonna be pricey, i need a stereo DI so i can have 1 free also.....or upgrade to POD X3....

should work though everyone suggests thats my,our, problem....sucks right why not UNbalced power amps...or circultry in the amp that balances the signal post input section....

good luck

[Son of Bovril]

Best idea is to run it through a pedal/unit that is made to take a line level signal like a compressor or EQ

I had to do a similar thing with me eden nav when it wasn't working properly... ran it into a dbx160A at line level and then into the poweramp, worked perfectly, hardly compressed the signal but used the makeup gain for the extra volume boost

[mikeddd]

You know, it's been months since I ran without pedals! I didn't even think of that. AFAIK, I do have them setup for unity gain. Maybe I'm losing the gain in my forest of pedals and/or maybe I don't have my gain structure set correctly. Back to the woodshed/drawing board, right? Thanks guys; I appreciate the help!

[rpsands]

I have used a microphone preamp in between preamps and poweramps a few times, to get the gain right with lower power preamps (e.g. the GK 2001 RBP). It works fine.

FYI: My recollection is that the DI out is what you want to be using from the Shuttle to drive a power amp. Most power amps lose 6db of gain with an unbalanced signal.

If you need the DI to send to FOH, use the FX out to a Di box.

I could be wrong of course, but I am pretty sure Agedhorse had said that the DI out was quite hot on the shuttle (capable of driving any power amp).

[mikeddd]

OK, I ran some tests. I don't have a dB meter, so this is going by "how I hear/feel it." Tests were all run with Gain and Volume on Shuttle at 50%. Gain on power amp dimed.

Test 1 - Baseline setup (Bass-->FX pedals-->Shuttle-->FX out unbal-->power amp: Baseline. Pedals off. Sounds good. Loud enough for acoustic guitar/piano gig.

Test 2 - Bass direct into Shuttle: No volume change that I could detect.

Test 3 - Bass-->FX pedals-->Shuttle-->XLR post EQ/Line level-->amp: Slightly LOWER volume than using the FX loop out's unbalanced output. Sound was pristine though. A little cleaner than using the unbalanced output but nothing you would hear in a gig setting.

Test 4 - Back to the baseline setup, but raised volume on the VT Bass pedal: No longer at unity gain but big difference in output. But that would happen by raising the volume on any ACTIVE pedal.

There seems to be a fine line here in getting the gain structure set correctly. I found that turning up the Gain on the VT Bass can overload the Shuttle's input. Can make it sound "farty." I guess I've got to mess with the gains on everything. It's got to be almost impossible to get the gain structure right, especially being that I play more than one bass through this rig.

Maybe I should just be happy with what I've got and not tweak so much? Nah. I'll keep poking at it. Thanks for your advice and suggestions.

Mike

[rpsands]

WOOPS, reading failure.

You should be able to turn the "Volume" knob up to taste. I wouldn't worry about diming it unless it starts sounding ratty.

[MR PC]

If you need more gain going to your power amp, a DI isn't going to give you much, just a little more presence. Are you sure your power amp doesn't have some internal adjustment function for matching with external line signal? Have you checked out the users manual?

Any way, a good mic pre could work well without adding to much noise. A quality compressor would work too. I used to use a TC Chorus pedal (it has a nice adjustable line boost feature independent of the effects) between my Demeter Preamp and Crown Power Amp. Sounded great, and was very dependable.

[thudfromafar]

Have you tried running just the shuttle 6 into your 212? Technically speaking, those speakers will run out of excursion before they can use anything beyond the shuttle's 375 watts @ 8 ohms. See if there's any volume difference in just using the bass head....