Preamp choices

[LGT]

Hi, this is my first post in amps (I've been lurking a lot though). There's a lot of info here, I love it!

I'm looking to upgrade from my starter practice amp (fender rumble 15). It can't really keep up with a drummer, and I might be doing some live stuff in coming months. I'm wanting to do a rack setup with a small cab because I'd be able to have plenty of power, and tone that I like for not too much money.

I play progressive/alt rock, so I'd want a preamp that I can get some grit with (another frustration with my current amp). I also want to be able to get good clean tones though.

Two preamps I'm looking at are the SansAmp RPM, and the Ashly SC-40. They're both pretty cheap. I know the SansAmp can do dirty tones, and I know the Ashly can do clean tones, but I don't know about vice-versa. There's something in the manual of the SC-40 about wiring diodes with a jack in the effects return to get smooth distortion. I'm not sure if that's like fuzz or not, because that's not really what I'm looking for.

Thoughts on the preamps? More suggestions? Anything would be helpful.

[Floyd Eye]

The SansAmp can do clean tones. The RBI and the RPM are both very good for that price point.

[LGT]

Thanks Floyd. Anyone have input on the Ashly?

[mdogs]

No input on the Ashly, but Geddy Lee uses RPM's and if you are playing prog rock I am thinking that would be the way to go. Plus the Tech21 stuff is just great quality wise and the pricing makes it accessible to just about everyone!

[behndy]

never used the Ashly. i've used the SansAmp BDDI, PBDI and VT Deluxe. those are probably most useful in that order (less to most).

take a look at the Tronographic Rusty Box too. it's really, REALLY good. or are you only looking for rackmount solutions? i like a "preamp that's a DI at the end of my signal chain on my pedalboard" approach myself.

[My name is Mudd]

What behndy says...the Rusty Box is a full-on preamp in a pedal-size package!

[tsunami1052]

I think Geddy Lee at one time used the Ashly BP-41 or SC-40 preamps. I had a BP41 - very clean tone, great preamp (I realy liked the Presence Boost Switch) if you can find one in good shape for a reasonable price. I still have a couple of the input jacks wired with diodes - fun to play with but your stuck with on-all-the-time thin sounding fuzz, if I remember.

The Sansamps are a good flavor, a lot of people run the RBI & the RPM together and they work great.

Also the Yamaha PB1 preamp is a hidden jewel.

The TubeWorks Blue Tube 904 Rack Preamp is a good buy - I am working on one now. Fat tube tone from clean to grind and they come up now and then for a good price. I run mine with a 12AU7 or a Jan 5751 tube to tame some of the overdrive.

[RickenBoogie]

Though i have no preamp advice for you, I did read in your op that you were wanting a "small" spkr cab, and also that you're playing rock. Just an fyi, you could have all the power in the world, but without sufficient spkrs, you'll never get loud. A 4x10 is sort of bare bones minimum, but there's lots of options. Just don't skimp on your speakers, and you'll be glad you didn't.

[Zooberwerx]

You can get a lot of preamp on the cheap. I have an RPM ($150 used), Ashly BP-41 ($85), Presonus Studio Channel ($130), and GK 2001 RBP ($250 new). The RPM would be the "safest" bet IMO. The Drive (adds grit) and sweepable mids (tailors voicing) make it a great all-purpose pre.

Riis

[tsunami1052]

+1 on the Sansamp VT Deluxe. Little more money but worth it, IMO.

[LGT]

Thanks guys! This is awesome! I think I'm probably going to go with the RPM. It seems like it could cover a lot of ground tonally.

As for speakers, would a 212 be good? I've heard that they're about the same in volume as 410's, I just want to be sure though. There's also an avatar 212 on local craigslist for $200!

[behndy]

my Aguilar GS212 gets VERY loud. dunno the Avatar stuff, but if it's similar spec'd, yes.

[My name is Mudd]

Aren't the Avatars rather mid-scooped?

[behndy]

they say that about the GS's too, but i've had no problems getting as much mids as i want.

[GrowlerBox]

I'd like to put in a vote for the Aguilar Tone Hammer -- a really nice clean tone, and the AGS circuit adds some nice grit right through to a pretty heavy overdrive. I believe some people have had some issues with the SansAmp's ability to drive some power amps, so if you go that way, be sure that the power amp's input voltage isn't too high. There do not appear to be any such problems with the Aguilar (I can't speak to the others), and it also has a really nice DI.

I would also second RickenBoogie's motion concerning the "small cab" -- all the power in the world will amount to nought without sufficient speakers to transform it into noise.

[craig.p]

On your Avatar 2x12 question, those things are UPPER-MID (or lower-treble) scooped. I'm talking about the later versions, the ones with the 12 dB/octave crossover. (You don't want the earlier version.) They also go much lower than many other bass cabs; many people, however, tilt their analyses twenty degrees clockwise and accuse them of being muddy, or heavy-sounding. (They're probably hearing for the first time a cab that can go deep and do that at volume, which can be disturbingly revealing of sloppy/gorilla right-hand technique.) I've also found the 2x12s almost eerily revealing of the instrument's signature tone. For example, a Carvin BX250 set flat, running into a pair of B212s, fed by a Rick strung with 30-year-old (dead) Rotosounds, running its bridge pickup straight to the output jack (no neck pickup), is still able to identify itself clearly as a Rickenbacker. But that's with a neutral amp. It doesn't happen with an MB200 or a Backline or a BDDI -- no cab can remove coloration. I realize this is a bit of a mash information-wise, but there might be one or two things there that can help you decide.

[tech21nyc]

Originally Posted by GrowlerBox

... I believe some people have had some issues with the SansAmp's ability to drive some power amps, so if you go that way, be sure that the power amp's input voltage isn't too high.. .

We went through this a few months ago and measured the output level of the RPM. It produced 3.6 volts rms which is + 10dB.(Line level is considered 0dB to +4dB generally speaking.) That seems to be more than adequate output level to drive most power amps. My guess is that people that say there is not enough output are either not setting up the RPM properly or have the output pad engaged or possibly they have the input attenuator on their power amp set too low. The following is some info from the Crown Audio Knowledge base:

Question: How do I determine the best input sensitivity setting?
The input sensitivity setting is a function of amplifier gain . You will want to match it with the output level of whatever is before the amp in the audio chain (i.e. preamps, mixers). For amplifiers with a 0.775V position, this positions corresponds to a 0 dBu level. The 1.4V position corresponds to a +4 dBu level. The 26 dB position is a fixed gain position. The 26 dB position is also the lowest gain position, and will usually work well with output levels of +10 dBu (2.5Vrms and above).

Question. Should I have the level controls on my amplifier turned all the way up?

... The level control can be thought of as an input attenuator. It does not limit the power available from the amplifier. With the level controls turned down the amplifier can still reach full rated output power, it just takes more drive level from your mixer to achieve it. Generally, you should set the mixer's individual channel fader and master gain to 0 dB, then adjust the amplifier level controls to the desired sound level.

The Crown Drivecore amps have a 1.4Vrms input sensitivity.
The Crest Power amp I looked up had a .775Vrms rating.

[LGT]

Great info guys. Do you think I could still get a nice (warm/fat) tone out of the avatar? Some other options are an older SWR workingman 410 for $200, and a Genz Benz 410 for $300. Would either of these be better? I know GB has quite a following here.

I'm also still probably going to get the RPM, because I'm kinda wanting to keep it rackmount. I'd also rather not have to deal with batteries or a power supply with the pedals. (I know the Aguilar has a phantom power, I just can't use that at home etc.)
thanks.

[kurotenshi]

Since a man can never have to many lists I just happen to have a list of preamps that are in my wish-list lol (yes I have to much free time...)

Pedals

• Aguilar Tone Hammer
• AMT Electronics BC-1
• Dave Hall Amps VT2-Twin-EQ-Bass
• EBS Micro Bass II
• Eden WTDI
• Electro Harmonix Bass Metaphors
• Hartke VXL Bass Attack
• Lehle Basswitch
• Mark Bass Ground Stereo Pre
• MXR M 80
• Radial Tonebone Bassbone
• Sadowsky Bass Preamp DI
• Seymour Duncan SFX-06 Paranormal Bass DI
• Sorce Audio Soundblox Bass Multiwave Pro
• Tech 21 Sansamp BDDI programmable
• Tech 21 VT Bass Delux
• L. R. Baggs Venue DI

Rack

• Ampeg SVP-Pro
• BBE BMAX
• BBE BMAX-T
• Demeter HBP-1 H
• Demeter VTBP-201S
• Fender TBP-1
• ISP Tech Beta Bass
• Line 6 POD X3 PRO
• Mesa Boogie Triaxis
• Michael Pope MPP-2
• Rocktron Blue Thunder
• Rocktron VooDu Valve
• SWR Marcus Miller Pre
• Tech 21 Sansamp RBI
• Tech 21 Sansamp RPM
• Tech 21 Sansamp PSA1.1
• Warwick JH PR40 Hellborg Pre

Hope this brings some new ideas.

[LGT]

Hey guys, I got a great deal on the RPM from Sweetwater ($260 new plus warranty.) It's on its way tomorrow! Thanks for your input.

I've also discovered that there is no shortage of great deals on cabs locally. Any input on the cabs above? There is also a paper-coned Hartke 410 for $150.