Preamp and Power Amp

Mr Antt · #1 10-13-2011, 11:07 AM

Hi there, I'm finally in the process of building my first stack!

I just cannot decide on a head. So, I was wondering (As many times as this has probably been asked before). As another option, if I were to use a Preamp and a power amp would I need anything else? (Apart from cabs of course).

I've read things about DI's and I don't get it. Are they even relevant?

Thanks, Anthony.

Lonesomedave · #2 10-13-2011, 11:26 AM

i am not an authority, but some guys here at corner music in nashville ARE (specifically Ray Arsenault) and here is what he recommended to me as we were discussing a rig for my son:

he recommended a uiversal Audio solo 610 for a pre-amp. it has inputs and adjustments so you can input either an instrument or a mic.

then he said, get a good power amp... crown, carvin etc. pick one which you like,

then get a good bass cabinet.

one thing he said (and BTW, i bet if you called him, he would be glad to talk to you. he is friendly and knowledgable about all kinds of PA set-ups and has been in the business for 20+ years)... he said get a power amp rated about twice the wattage of the maximum rated input of your cabs! this seemed backwards to me and I said so, and he said... look, most cabs can handle peaks and your amp won't be putting out it's maximum power anyway. he went on to say that what blows speakers is not clean power, but clipping, and with that extra headroom you avoid potential problems.

(anyone who disagrees, call him up and discuss it... don't flame me. i don't know and am just passing on what an experienced PA man told me)

anyway, good luck.

Mr Antt · #3 10-13-2011, 11:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lonesomedave

i am not an authority, but some guys here at corner music in nashville ARE (specifically Ray Arsenault) and here is what he recommended to me as we were discussing a rig for my son:

he recommended a uiversal Audio solo 610 for a pre-amp. it has inputs and adjustments so you can input either an instrument or a mic.

then he said, get a good power amp... crown, carvin etc. pick one which you like,

then get a good bass cabinet.

one thing he said (and BTW, i bet if you called him, he would be glad to talk to you. he is friendly and knowledgable about all kinds of PA set-ups and has been in the business for 20+ years)... he said get a power amp rated about twice the wattage of the maximum rated input of your cabs! this seemed backwards to me and I said so, and he said... look, most cabs can handle peaks and your amp won't be putting out it's maximum power anyway. he went on to say that what blows speakers is not clean power, but clipping, and with that extra headroom you avoid potential problems.

(anyone who disagrees, call him up and discuss it... don't flame me. i don't know and am just passing on what an experienced PA man told me)

anyway, good luck.

Sounds great. Unfortunately, I can't make a phone call to Nashville. I'm here in the UK. would I be able to contact him in another way?

Thanks, Anthony.

BurningSkies · #4 10-13-2011, 11:31 AM

Well, Antt,

You're standing on the edge of the pool, trying to decide to dive into the deep end or not.

As someone who’s had to work hard to save 100 quid for a cabinet or two, I’m guessing the UA preamp that Dave wants you to buy is probably out of the question (around 700 bucks to start). The reality is that a pre/power amp could be a great setup. If you need the flexibility offered. It tends to be more expensive (power amp, pre amp, then a rack to put it in) than a regular amp head. Also decent amp heads can be found for under 500, especially if you shop thrifty and carefully. I’m guessing that you could find something that’s in the 200 range that would do you for quite a while until you needed bigger, better or more expensive.

staindbass · #5 10-13-2011, 11:34 AM

whats the price range? are you thinking behringer or vintage pultec.

Lonesomedave · #6 10-13-2011, 11:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BurningSkies

Well, Antt,

You're standing on the edge of the pool, trying to decide to dive into the deep end or not.

As someone who’s had to work hard to save 100 quid for a cabinet or two, I’m guessing the UA preamp that Dave wants you to buy is probably out of the question (around 700 bucks to start). The reality is that a pre/power amp could be a great setup. If you need the flexibility offered. It tends to be more expensive (power amp, pre amp, then a rack to put it in) than a regular amp head. Also decent amp heads can be found for under 500, especially if you shop thrifty and carefully. I’m guessing that you could find something that’s in the 200 range that would do you for quite a while until you needed bigger, better or more expensive.

hey, hey, hey... i love Mr. Antt like a brother and all that, but I do not "want him to buy" anything...

i was just passing on a discussion that I had with an experienced PA man on this very subject.

ps- edit- to Mr. Antt- his email address is ray@corner music.com, and i bet he would be happy to talk to you. tell him i recommended you to him (not that that is any great recommendation, just maybe he'll thank me or something)

RickenBoogie · #7 10-13-2011, 11:37 AM

I'd skip all that rack stuff, and just get a good bass amp. Many to choose from, my choice would be a Mesa M6 Carbine. One piece of gear, fairly lightweight, and awesome tone. Done.

Mr Antt · #8 10-13-2011, 11:38 AM

Alrighty. For now I'm just thinking ahead. I could maybe stretch to about £300 as of now, it's really tough at the moment. That budget could rise, fall, stay the same for any amount of time.

I'd love this kind of setup, it really appeals to me. Branding I'm not so worried about, price a little.

So for now just find myself a head in/around that price range?

BurningSkies · #9 10-13-2011, 11:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr Antt

Alrighty. For now I'm just thinking ahead. I could maybe stretch to about £300 as of now, it's really tough at the moment. That budget could rise, fall, stay the same for any amount of time.

I'd love this kind of setup, it really appeals to me. Branding I'm not so worried about, price a little.

So for now just find myself a head in/around that price range?

You did a great thing by finding your cabs extra cheap used. You should be using the same tactic to find your new head. Used is the best way to maximize your poundage.

Mr Antt · #10 10-13-2011, 11:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BurningSkies

You did a great thing by finding your cabs extra cheap used. You should be using the same tactic to find your new head. Used is the best way to maximize your poundage.

As always, that's the plan. I can't afford anything but. I'm always keeping my eye out for used stuff. It's a strange habit of mine. The way I've always seen it is someday something good will come up cheap. And, with the cabs it did. Hopefully a head will apply to the same theory.

skychief · #11 10-13-2011, 11:43 AM

I would suggest considering used gear to really stretch your gear-buying dollars. And if you get a solid-state head, Make sure its "2 ohm friendly". then you add more cabs when necessary (need volume boost for outdoor gigs, GAS attack, etc,)

enricogaletta · #12 10-14-2011, 01:27 AM

hey Anthony well first of all you need to figured out what are the goal for your gear, if you plan to do several recording sessions in studio a preamp plus the power amp to use it in live gigs will be nice, by the way almost all the new head products permit you to use the preamp section without connect a cab, as well for studio sessions! Anyway a preamp can be suited better in my opinion in studio and can be good too in live sessions too but in live scene, except if you don't have a light power amp it can be a little uncomfortable to handle.
When I do sessions I usually go straight in my comp and than in my DI, if I want a little bit of color I use my SWR preamp too, for live. it's amazing the match of the Interstellar preamp and Power750, the punch ant tone is amazing but except for bigger gigs, for the most I just use a small Aguilar Tone Hammer that's sound great too. Just think about your primary needs.
Cheers. Enrico
YouTube
WebSite

Oobly · #13 10-14-2011, 02:39 AM

Good score on those cabinets!

I would recommend looking for a 2nd hand Carvin but you're probably not going to find many for sale in UK... Good value and flexible.

Do you know yet what your "tonal goals" are? I was a bit uncertain about that myself and went for a "clean" solid state power amp for my cab (Crown XLS) and a tube preamp / distortion / EQ / DI pedal.

That way I can change my preamp to change my tone if the one I get doesn't give me what I want (although I researched a fair amount on this and am pretty sure it will). Also, I have a fair amount of nice clean "headroom" from my bridged power amp.

If you see an Aguilar Tonehammer or Sansamp VT Bass going for cheap, they will do nicely as preamps. The tonehammer is a bit more "clean", the VT has some nice Ampeg tones.

I ordered a Dave Hall Amps VT2-Twin-EQ-Std-Bass, cost me 200 pounds, though. If you can save up a little that is a good option, too.

Peavey IPR (such as this one: PEAVEY IPR 1600 - Thomann UK Cyberstore) and Crown XLS are good value power amps. I wouldn't get a Behringer unless you are willing to take a risk.

If you find a good power amp within your budget, you can always get an ART tube MP to use as a preamp (ART TUBE MP - Thomann UK Cyberstore) until you find a good deal on the preamp you want.

Please note: I post the links merely as examples...

P.S. - You're on your way to having a seriously nice rig

Mr Antt · #14 10-14-2011, 03:51 AM

I just want to perform. My tone, can be handled the whole way. I'll work that one out when I get into it. But as a basic guideline, I want it to sound deep, but clear too. I want to feel the bass, it's so much better. The bassist who just left my school had a 1x15 & 2x10 stack with a tube amp. It sounded so warm, and low. Yet I could pick out each note.

If that makes sense, maybe that could help. I'd love a tube amp, but I cannot find one cheap enough. Maybe the solidstate and tube preamp would be a good way to go?

Thanks for all the help so far. I feel so welcomed here.

Anthony.

phatbass · #15 10-14-2011, 03:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr Antt

Hi there, I'm finally in the process of building my first stack!

I just cannot decide on a head. So, I was wondering (As many times as this has probably been asked before). As another option, if I were to use a Preamp and a power amp would I need anything else? (Apart from cabs of course).

I've read things about DI's and I don't get it. Are they even relevant?

Thanks, Anthony.

No.

If you have to go through a PA, the sound guy *SHOULD* have a DI (this enables you to plug your Bass directly into the PA rather than mic the cab, hence DI = Direct Injection)

Zooberwerx · #16 10-14-2011, 04:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr Antt

If that makes sense, maybe that could help. I'd love a tube amp, but I cannot find one cheap enough. Maybe the solidstate and tube preamp would be a good way to go?

Good choice. I've been using nothing but pre / power configs for well over 10 years. Used power amps can be had for cheap if you watch the classifieds. I don't recall ever paying more than $250 for a used QSC RMX 2450 in mear-mint condition. Heavy, yes, but I own a handtruck. Pre's are another story...so much depends on individual taste. Nice thing about separate pre's is that you can "roll" them thru your rig until you find one that best suits your needs.

Based on my experience and your stated goals, my top two picks would be the Ampeg SVP-CL and SWR Interstellar Overdrive...both discontinued but available on the secondhand market for well under $500. In the US, anyway.

Riis

Jim Carr · #17 10-14-2011, 06:49 AM

Rambling thoughts on my rack system...

When I wanted a rack system. I had read some reviews and recommendations, and decided on a Crest CA6. I found one for around $470 on Ebay.

The pre I wanted, a Fender TBP-1, always seemed to slip though my fingers when the price was right. I decided to try a BMax, and found one for $200 used. A deep four space rack to the hold the amp and a pre or two, cost $50 used. I am not factoring in shipping, banana to 1/4 connects, heavy gauge speaker cables, etc.

I heard an ART tube channel, and decided it was for me. I found a used one for ~$130! I keep both because I like them. The Bmax was tricky to learn, with it's Fender-style tone stack, but kills for slap, and the ART is complex but amazingly warm and good, very punchy, with very flexible EQ. Both have decent built-in compressors.

The CA6 alone is 49 lbs. The whole rack assembled with power amp, preamps, interconnects/power extensions weighs in at just over 72 lbs.! Yes, I have a hand truck, and am experienced moving heavy stuff with it on stairs. I can carry it, but it is tiring, and one's mortal frame only lasts so long, so I prefer to use the hand truck. There are still the dead lifts into the vehicle.

Having a 2 ohm (each channel) capable amp is great, and the power (600 watts@4 ohms per channel, 1500@4 ohms bridged) is simply oceanic. BTW, the CA6 power amp is over 10 years old, and I have used it a lot, and thrice taken it on month long tours.

Now days, I focus more on local projects—Denton, Texas has the largest music school in the US (University of North Texas), so there are tons of musicians and clubs).

I have a GB Shuttle 6.0 (one channel, 600watts@4 ohms, not 2 ohm capable) for running off to rehearsal with a bass, a cab, and a bag. I have for gigs a Mesa Boogie M9 (900watts@4 ohms, 2 ohm capable), and can take both to a gig for less weight and space than the rack system, the question is: why have a rack anymore?

It has been handy as a PA head, and the fact is I could hook ALL of my cabs to it if I felt I needed to, but other than that, it is a very heavy, loud, and large boy toy.

If it were all I had, I'd love it to bits, but the tone and slam from the Mesa M9 in a 27 lb. package pretty much equals or beats it, plus the Mesa makes it easy to dial in many many good tones.

Downside, the Mesa cost me ~$800 used, but wait, there's more: the rack system cost $~850 and probably another $200 in shipping.

Obligatory pic:

Jim Carr · #18 10-14-2011, 07:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr Antt

...I've read things about DI's and I don't get it. Are they even relevant?...

Yes, but many pre amps have them built-in. They allow you to send a signal to the front of the house PA system, whilst your amp acts as a stage monitor.

A DI does this by providing an interface and a phantom powered boost via an XLR (DIN) cable that can support a long cable run with minimal noise or loss. DI is Direct Inject. Worry about getting a separate DI later.

Oobly · #19 10-14-2011, 07:44 AM

DI's can take the signal from almost anywhere in your signal chain, straight from the bass, after pedals, after preamp and even after the power amp. The signal is for the sound engineer to mix with the rest of the band for the PA amps and speakers.

I wouldn't worry about it now. Most preamps have a DI output, so you can usually just use that.

Joe Louvar · #20 10-14-2011, 08:09 AM

Anthony, I think you should get a bass amp head too and if you want to feel it get at least 300 watts w/a big cabinet. Recording studios have preamps so don’t worry about that and don’t worry about a DI because most bass amps have one built in or the club/sound reinforcement company will have them.