Preference - preamp+poweramp or amp ?

[mouthmw]

So I was thinking, and I'm sort of having a dilemma.
I'm selling my amp, because it's not enough power for me (about 130 Watts of sinusoid power on Ampeg 810 cab, with a Tone Hammer preamp).

1. Now, I thought about buying a power amp that I could combine with my Tone Hammer. It's the cheaper route, and I could get quite a big Wattage for less cash.

2. Or: What about I just sell both my amp and my Tone Hammer, and save some more cash, and just buy an amp? I was looking at something perhaps like Orange Terror Bass (but am open for suggestions).

Here's the thing. I love my Tone Hammer, but I think I'd find it almost useless with a good amp that already shapes the tone nicely. The way it helps me now, is that it pushes my amp to a higher volume, adds a lot better EQ and some clarity. But that's all because my current amp is not exactly killer - an old Kustom III Bass head.
I use the DI function perhaps once a year, and just exclusively use it as my coloration and "pusher". Would I have any use for it with a good amp except perhaps a drive/fuzz pedal and DI?
Or is the preamp + power amp idea perhaps a better choice?

I play in a hard rock band (led zep, hendrix, van halen, wolfmother, etc). I love the vintage tone, growly, smooth, warm. I'm not into hi-fi sound too much.

What would you do?
Looking for suggestions. Sell it all, buy amp? Keep Tone Hammer, buy power amp? Keep Tone Hammer, buy amp? Carrots?

[shadow_FIX]

Even if you buy an amp, it won't necessarily render your Tone Hammer useless. Even if you preferred the EQ section on the amp you buy, perhaps you could use the Tone Hammer as a boost, or just to re-shape the sound for a particular song, etc. But it's not necessary, I'm just saying there could still be use for it.

If you like the tone hammer, perhaps you might want to look into Aguilar's amplifiers.

Otherwise, try out a few amps. I don't have direct experience with the Terror bass, but it seems to be fairly well liked around here.

[Eric Moesle]

It depends on your usage.

I use a pre + power amp simply for the versatility. I gig alot, and depending on the size of the stage/venue I need different cabinet configurations. A two-channel power amp gives me the flexibility and impedance options to use whatever I may need for that particular gig.

If I didn't gig much or always played the same size stage/venue, a dedicated amp would be easier to schlep around.

Some people who prefer to regularly swap preamps for the "flavor of the month" might also benefit more from a power amp setup.

[mouthmw]

Yes, makes sense! But in my case, I'd pretty much use it as a dedicated amp, having my preamp as my tone control, and I only have 1 cab (810E).

Would tone hammer have a vintage or more modern sound with a power amp?
Somehow I think I'd get a more vintage rock vibe with Orange Terror Bass.

[RickenBoogie]

It comes down to personal preference, but to me, an all-in-one package is always preferred- and there's alot of great bass heads to choose from. You should go forth and play on as many as you can find.

[lowfreq33]

I don't know how much output the Tone Hammer has, but are you sure it would be enough to drive a power amp by itself? There could be some noise issues.

That being said, with the kind of music you do I'll bet you'd dig the Orange.

[Zooberwerx]

IIRC, the TH will power a power amp with no problem. Francois / bassman74 looked into this as an option last year.

I've stuck with the pre / power configuration for the past 10 years...here's why:

*Watts is cheap. You can pick up a used QSC RMX 1450 for $150-200 locally (just saw one on CL).

*Rolling preamps is fun. I have 4 and keep them in rotation for no other reason than to keep things fresh.

*Used pre's are very reasonable and a helluva lot easier to ship than a fully integrated bass head.

Riis

[Calaverasgrande]

I tried that route myself and found that sheer watts does not equal great tone. I am much happier with a an GK RB series head or an all tube arm stretcher like the Mesa Bass 400 or Ampeg SVT. Also, yuor standard power amps are designed for PA uses and are never intended to be operated at or near clipping. As such they sound terrible when they do encounter clipping.

[Zooberwerx]

Originally Posted by Calaverasgrande

I tried that route myself and found that sheer watts does not equal great tone. I am much happier with a an GK RB series head or an all tube arm stretcher like the Mesa Bass 400 or Ampeg SVT. Also, yuor standard power amps are designed for PA uses and are never intended to be operated at or near clipping. As such they sound terrible when they do encounter clipping.

No, you're right...the tone comes from the preamp. The power amp exists solely to move the drivers.

Your statement re: "designed for PA...near clipping" is a little confusing to me. A decent solid state power amp is the "Swiss Army Knife" of sound reinforcement and can be used for bass rigs, mains, subs, monitors, etc. There is no specific bass-oriented power amp of which I'm aware. Mike Pope, Alembic, Demeter, Kern, Aguilar....all high ticket preamps which are designed to interface with...you guessed it...solid state power amps.

A poorly adjusted gain structure may result in the clipping you described. That's what attenuators are for.

Riis

[vivifiction]

for what you're wanting, i pinky promise you'll love the orange. I'm an ashdown man myself, but a good buddy of mine has the bass terror and every now and then I'll play a gig for someone where I bust out my P-bass and the Orange and rattle everyone's bones.

[SteveC]

When you can have an amp at 6 pounds that sounds like a 100 pound tube head or rack rig and can put out 1,000 watts, the answer seems obvious to me.

[Calaverasgrande]

Originally Posted by Zooberwerx

No, you're right...the tone comes from the preamp. The power amp exists solely to move the drivers.

Your statement re: "designed for PA...near clipping" is a little confusing to me. A decent solid state power amp is the "Swiss Army Knife" of sound reinforcement and can be used for bass rigs, mains, subs, monitors, etc. There is no specific bass-oriented power amp of which I'm aware. Mike Pope, Alembic, Demeter, Kern, Aguilar....all high ticket preamps which are designed to interface with...you guessed it...solid state power amps.

A poorly adjusted gain structure may result in the clipping you described. That's what attenuators are for.

Riis

Well most of these "swiss army knife" power amps are not the easiest things to understand for your average user. For instance, it is not uncommon for the numbers on the input gain controls to go backwards. Such that when full up they are 0db when at about 3 oclock they might be marked -14db, at noon -24db etc. This is counterintuitive for most folks. Of course they arent gain knobs but attenuators. But not all bass players are familar with decibels.
There are tons of bass specific power amps. SWR makes several, including a micro version. Tubeworks, Ampeg, Mesa Boogie have made them in the past. I am sure there are others that escape me at the moment.
My point wasnt that PA amps sound bad when intentionally driven to distortion. That is almost never the intention. But I have seen/heard guys run their amps/preamps wrong and sound awful for it.
Crown/QSC/Yamaha/Crest amps all will sound brittle and very annoying when you get that red clip light lit constantly!
Most bass amps, even solidstate ones, don't sound nearly as bad when pushed very hard. The designers were aware that their amps might see service in less than ideal conditions and doubtless designed for that. Ask anyone with a GK 400RB/800RB!
Now if the user can set up their amp so that they NEVER get into unintentional overdrive then its not a problem. I have seen/heard guys that pull this off as well. But it is an issue with using power amps instead of amp heads. This is why it is good advice to use a power amp that is higher than the wattage you intend to use it for. That not only preserves dynamic headroom (which can sound really great) it keep you very far away from the threshold of distortion.

[Zooberwerx]

Originally Posted by Calaverasgrande

Well most of these "swiss army knife" power amps are not the easiest things to understand for your average user. For instance, it is not uncommon for the numbers on the input gain controls to go backwards. Such that when full up they are 0db when at about 3 oclock they might be marked -14db, at noon -24db etc. This is counterintuitive for most folks. Of course they arent gain knobs but attenuators. But not all bass players are familar with decibels.
There are tons of bass specific power amps. SWR makes several, including a micro version. Tubeworks, Ampeg, Mesa Boogie have made them in the past. I am sure there are others that escape me at the moment.
My point wasnt that PA amps sound bad when intentionally driven to distortion. That is almost never the intention. But I have seen/heard guys run their amps/preamps wrong and sound awful for it.
Crown/QSC/Yamaha/Crest amps all will sound brittle and very annoying when you get that red clip light lit constantly!
Most bass amps, even solidstate ones, don't sound nearly as bad when pushed very hard. The designers were aware that their amps might see service in less than ideal conditions and doubtless designed for that. Ask anyone with a GK 400RB/800RB!
Now if the user can set up their amp so that they NEVER get into unintentional overdrive then its not a problem. I have seen/heard guys that pull this off as well. But it is an issue with using power amps instead of amp heads. This is why it is good advice to use a power amp that is higher than the wattage you intend to use it for. That not only preserves dynamic headroom (which can sound really great) it keep you very far away from the threshold of distortion.

Yes, I do recall a handful of discontinued power units but by what design are they truly bass-specific? So as to not confuse the issue, let's stick with solid state components....valve amps are a whole 'nother animal.

Your comments on the proper application ring true. I've seen more than a handful of threads whereas the the users are setting attenuators at -0- (no attenuation) and then find they're clipping amps at relatively low preamp settings. dbx has a couple of interesting, easy to understand tutorials on gain structure as it applies to mixing boards and amps but I've been able to use the same rationale in establishing relationships amongst my pre and power amps. Surprisingly, the outcomes have been fairly consistent with my QSC's attenuators set at 37-40% (11:00) despite trials with 4 very different pre's.

Separate power amps are also handy if you're running sound. I can swap / re-assign components as necessary as the system grows or...heaven forbid...I'm faced with a malfunctioning component. Not like that ever happens, huh?

Riis

[mouthmw]

Originally Posted by SteveC

When you can have an amp at 6 pounds that sounds like a 100 pound tube head or rack rig and can put out 1,000 watts, the answer seems obvious to me.

Errrm.. I take you mean the amp seems like an obvious choice? Yes?

[mouthmw]

Originally Posted by vivifiction

for what you're wanting, i pinky promise you'll love the orange. I'm an ashdown man myself, but a good buddy of mine has the bass terror and every now and then I'll play a gig for someone where I bust out my P-bass and the Orange and rattle everyone's bones.

Oh yea man, I love the gritty tone Orange can produce, but I'm a tiny bit worried I can't really get a clean tone out of it, for "calmer" songs.

What Ashdown head do you have if I may ask? I also have a good deal on a "almost new" Ashdown ABM 500 EVO III. Any experience with that head?

[projectMalamute]

You are going about this backwards. Figure out what you need to sound the way you want to sound. Then buy whatever components give you that sound.

If the Tone Hammer is giving you the sound you want you should use preamp + power amp setup.

If the Orange is giving you the sound you want to you should use an integrated head.

Worry about what stuff sounds like, not what the box or boxes look like.

[mouthmw]

The sound is the only thing I'm worried about, not the boxes.
I'm worried that the sound of poweramp and preamp will be too sterile.
It's currently not sterile because I use the tone hammer with a mosfet head that gives it warmth. But it lacks power.

[SteveC]

Originally Posted by mouthmw

Errrm.. I take you mean the amp seems like an obvious choice? Yes?

Yes. To me anyway.

[BobaFret]

Originally Posted by lowfreq33

I don't know how much output the Tone Hammer has, but are you sure it would be enough to drive a power amp by itself? There could be some noise issues.

That being said, with the kind of music you do I'll bet you'd dig the Orange.

I use a TH into a Carvin DCM power amp and it's quite nice. That is my main rig. I like the flexibility of having plenty of power behind whatever preamp I want.

I would say the TH sound isn't very 'vintage' but that depends a lot on what bass you are plugging in.

My Lakland 44-02 isn't very 'vintage' either.

[kosmicwizard]

Keep Tone Hammer, buy power amp

This is the least expensive way to get an operational rig ... Then save money and try heads until you get one you are happy with if that is what you want. Cheers.