Problems "Hearing" a 15" speaker

[RevNigel]

Some years ago, our Church had an SWR basic black... 15" /w/ tweeter as the house amp for monitoring yourself... I could never hear that thing over the band. I used to have to bring my pathetic Kustom 80watt whatever the hell with a12" to hear what I was playing. Sometimes I'd resort to headphones... They get mad if you crank the amp... so having one that's got good "cut" is essential.

I've now scored a Peavey basic 40 /w/ a 12" in it... I am hoping it will serve as a good monitor.

Anyone else experience this?

[Gearhead17]

Number one thing to do on stage, get whatever gear you are using closer to your ears to cut down on stage volume. You can keep the volume lower because the sound is going straight to your ears not to your knees. The other key is to knock off the low end from your stage rig - a little cut goes a long way and allows you to "bleed" less low end into the room. Keeps sound guys happy!

You probably do not like the SWR tone - there is generally a large dip at 300hz which will get rid of the thickness of your notes. The Kustom combo amp probably did not have the dip in frequency response and had more midrange overall - which is most likely why you heard it better.

[JimmyM]

right. it's not the speaker size itself that causes it. it's got to be aimed at your head to hear it properly, plus swr's native tone is to be mid scooped, which can make you disappear in a mix. you can eq it back in, but it takes a little work with some swr stuff.

[frankie5string]

+1 one on that. The 1x15 will tend to radiate sound pressure but it actually can be a bit difficult to hear your "note" with them if they're not pointed at you and turned down to reasonable volumes.

Also, turn down/off the "aural enhancer" (oral?) ... It really doesn't work well with just a single 15+tweeter in that cab. Roll the bass control back a bit - if I remember correctly, that 15 was really "slow" and mushy when you boost the bass... better to roll it back a bit and have more clarity.

[Russell L]

My SWR Workingman's 12 sounds transparent like that sometimes, depending on the venue. What worked for me was to turn back the volume on my bass to about 7-1/2. Somehow that reworked the frequencies to where I could hear it better and find a tone I liked better. I don't know why that was. On the other hand my Trace Elliot 7215 with it's single 15 is the most defined amp I've ever heard onstage (even better so than my Markbass).

[will33]

The midrange that you need to hear is pretty directional coming from a large cone. Whichever combo you use, try setting it on a chair or something and/or angle it back a bit so it's closer to your ears. Should be able to hear yourself better without getting too loud out front.

[Rick Auricchio]

Originally Posted by will33

The midrange that you need to hear is pretty directional coming from a large cone.

+1. The larger the speaker, the more directional it is. Having it on the floor means the mids might make it up to your thighs. With tens, the mids would disperse better.

Getting the amp off the floor is the key.

[RevNigel]

We had it on an upward facing amp stand... It was just a tough one to hear. It was there just for monitoring....

I'm now using a Peavy Basic 40 (single 12") and it's working fine. It's a little gritty sounding, but I can hear what I'm doing, and that's what's most important. The sound guy is getting a pure DI signal...

[will33]

If it works, it works, cool. SWR's built in "sound" has a lot of low mids scooped out of it, easy to get buried in a mix. Boosting 250hz on them or putting a "frowny face" eq gets them closer to even.

[Blankandson]

Hmmmmm. Everyone that has two cabs usually puts the 15" on the bottom and the two 10s on top. What if that were changed? Would that alter how the lows were heard, or how far out the 10s would still be punchy?
I played one night at a church a year ago that had an old combo with a single 15". It sounded horrible. A few minutes into the rehersal the director asked what I had done as it sounded great. All I did was roll the bass to -10. It suddenly had more bass and was a lot cleaner sounding.

[IvanMike]

Originally Posted by JimmyM

right. it's not the speaker size itself that causes it. it's got to be aimed at your head to hear it properly, plus swr's native tone is to be mid scooped, which can make you disappear in a mix. you can eq it back in, but it takes a little work with some swr stuff.

this.

That combo tended to be a bit mid shy & hard to hear on stage, but didn't sound bad out front at all. You're dealing with a multiple of variables, not just a "15 inch speaker thing".

[Laurent]

I use both 15' and 10'. Here are my thoughts on the issue:

- 15" are generally less directionals than 10".
- If you train your ears to hear 15's it becomes easier with time. I tend to feel these speakers as much as I hear them.

[Rick Auricchio]

Originally Posted by Laurent

I use both 15' and 10'. Here are my thoughts on the issue:

- 15" are generally less directionals than 10".

Actually, it's the opposite. The larger the driver, the more it tends to beam its upper mids and highs right down the middle.

This is why 12s for guitars are such a bad choice, but everyone buys them, so manufacturers sell them.

[René_Julien]

Originally Posted by Rick Auricchio

Actually, it's the opposite. The larger the driver, the more it tends to beam its upper mids and highs right down the middle.

This is why 12s for guitars are such a bad choice, but everyone buys them, so manufacturers sell them.

Do you mean 10s are better for guitar then?

[Rick Auricchio]

Smaller drivers are less apt to beam their highs down the middle. With 2x12 guitar cabs, the people directly in front of the cab get their ears destroyed, while people off to the side don't hear the guitar nearly as loud.

It's worse than that. The average guitarist has his cab on the floor, so he isn't hearing the highs where his ears are.

If guitarists used, say, a pair of 8" drivers, their amps would have much better dispersion.

[Mr. Foxen]

4x10s in square formation are more directional than a 1x15, because it is the total width/dimension of all the speakers that determines directivity in the relevant direction.

[JimmyM]

Originally Posted by Mr. Foxen

4x10s in square formation are more directional than a 1x15, because it is the total width/dimension of all the speakers that determines directivity in the relevant direction.

correct. a square 410 with 1" between the drivers has the dispersion characteristics of a 21" speaker. on its own, a 10" would have better dispersion than a 15", though.

[gregoire1]

I used a Peavey Basic 50 for years. It is indestructible and very loud for it's power rating. Resist the urge to scoop and it'll be fine. It has no DI tho.

[René_Julien]

Originally Posted by JimmyM

correct. a square 410 with 1" between the drivers has the dispersion characteristics of a 21" speaker. on its own, a 10" would have better dispersion than a 15", though.

Is this issue related to the "best to vertical stack" advice?
So drivers horizontally cancel out each others dispersion? Or is that too simplified?

Originally Posted by Rick Auricchio

Smaller drivers are less apt to beam their highs down the middle. With 2x12 guitar cabs, the people directly in front of the cab get their ears destroyed, while people off to the side don't hear the guitar nearly as loud.

It's worse than that. The average guitarist has his cab on the floor, so he isn't hearing the highs where his ears are.

If guitarists used, say, a pair of 8" drivers, their amps would have much better dispersion.

So the same goes for guitar cabs as with bass cabs, vertical stacking. (Also a little kick backing or raising the cab?)
What are some great 8" speakers for guitar cabs? (I'm messing with guitar a lot lately, maybe even gigging in the future.)



Another uneducated question: how about toeing in cabs?
Even if you have two cabs on each other, would it help to toe them in a bit for dispersion? Or aligne them as a true column would be better?


I saw a guitar cab designs from Bill Fitzmaurice on his website: toe'd in and "kick backed" cab designs for 2x10, 4x10, 2x12 and 4x12 cabs.
Wouldn't vertical array and some sort of toe in be better?
Would be a little more complicated to design and build, but could be done I guess.

[JimmyM]

Originally Posted by René_Julien

Is this issue related to the "best to vertical stack" advice?
So drivers horizontally cancel out each others dispersion? Or is that too simplified?

nope, not too simplified. that's what happens. the techs all explained this one night...each side of the cone puts out vibrations shortly after each other, and as the air masses from each side come together, they force the offending frequencies toward the middle, and the higher the frequency, the worse it gets. and then if you have two together in a horizontal plane, the already beaming frequencies just get pushed together even more. it also will do it in the vertical plane as well, but we're less prone to move in the vertical plane, so it's not as bad, so that's why everything in pa world is vertical now.

So the same goes for guitar cabs as with bass cabs, vertical stacking. (Also a little kick backing or raising the cab?)
What are some great 8" speakers for guitar cabs? (I'm messing with guitar a lot lately, maybe even gigging in the future.)

Another uneducated question: how about toeing in cabs?
Even if you have two cabs on each other, would it help to toe them in a bit for dispersion? Or aligne them as a true column would be better?

I saw a guitar cab designs from Bill Fitzmaurice on his website: toe'd in and "kick backed" cab designs for 2x10, 4x10, 2x12 and 4x12 cabs.
Wouldn't vertical array and some sort of toe in be better?
Would be a little more complicated to design and build, but could be done I guess.

some of those questions are beyond me, but bill has said that you can aim cabs crossing the stage in a 45 degree angle to get better dispersion.