"Program power"... what is this?

[Kikegg]

I searched for it but nothing...

I know RMS power (the watts to check), peak power, but what is this? What it means? Seen on cabinet specs.

Thanks a lot.

[Rune Bivrin]

It's a way for the marketing department to print larger number in cabinet specs. Nothing much else...

[Kikegg]

Originally Posted by Rune Bivrin

It's a way for the marketing department to print larger number in cabinet specs. Nothing much else...

Ok, but how to "read" this number? Any equivalence to RMS? Or it just means nothing.

Thanks.

[3506string]

rms vs. peak vs. program

[Kikegg]

Big thanks.

[username1]

Program power usually means compressed recorded music. It places alot less demand on things. Usually program power is double what RMS power is. Like others have said...Rms power is the thermal rating but chanches are your cab will fart out before you ever reach that.

[T-Bird]

Hi.

"Invented" by Peavey IIRC.

Originally Posted by Kikegg

Ok, but how to "read" this number?

You read it as BS, every manufacturer has their own way of determining it.

Stick to RMS, far from perfect, but the closest thing we mundanes have.

Regards
Sam

[B-string]

Originally Posted by T-Bird

Hi.

"Invented" by Peavey IIRC.
Regards
Sam

You remember incorrectly, "program power" was around when Mr Peavey was just a glimmer in his Dads eye.

[T-Bird]

Hi.

Originally Posted by B-string

You remember incorrectly, "program power" was around when Mr Peavey was just a glimmer in his Dads eye.

Thanks for setting me straight.

It's just that I'm (relatively) young and for a long time, Peavey was the only manufacturer who used that "marketing department power measurement" over here.
Dubbed as Peavey-watts IIRC. And not in a good way I may add .

Regards
Sam

[B-string]

Electro-Voice (EV) was using "program power" for sometime before. With EV it meant sustained wattage input (greater than RMS) and was done with some responsibility. But the only "standard" ever adopted and regulated was RMS. Peavey tried to fallow along the same lines as EV, they really were/are more responsible with there "program" rating than most. I believe one of the Ampeg owners also stated a "program power" rating.
Like I said though, the only standard testing adopted widely was "RMS".

[T-Bird]

Hi.

Originally Posted by B-string

Electro-Voice (EV) was using "program power" for sometime before. With EV it meant sustained wattage input (greater than RMS) and was done with some responsibility. But the only "standard" ever adopted and regulated was RMS. Peavey tried to fallow along the same lines as EV, they really were/are more responsible with there "program" rating than most. I believe one of the Ampeg owners also stated a "program power" rating.
Like I said though, the only standard testing adopted widely was "RMS".

Thanks again.

In the context I've seen program power used, it's hard to believe the "first" was EV, but I take Your word for it.
OTOH, EV did use terms like acoustic power as well. Not hard to imagine why that din't catch on .

RMS is very easy, repeatable and user friendly way of measuring things, IME anyway. It's good to have at least one "standard" like that.

Regards
Sam

[seanm]

I once read a good argument for "program power", but I can't find the link

IIRC, the basic gist of the article was that RMS power is meaningless in a live situation. How often are you playing continuous 1kHz sine waves on a bass? Program power is supposedly more useful since it uses a more realistic input.

However, RMS is much easier to rigorously measure, so it makes for a better standard.

And, as always, you have to take all ratings with a grain of salt since you don't know what the marketing department has done to them

[Jerrold Tiers]

maybe there is some confusion?

Seems as if some ("Peavey watts") are confusing the use of "program power" as being some sort of OUTPUT rating for amplifiers......

It is NOT an "amplifier output" rating, we are not talking about the old 8-track player "music power +- 1 dB" here..... I don't know how you would even use "program power" for an "output" rating.

No.......... "Program power" is supposed to be a rating telling you that you can "use the speaker with an amp up to this power".... it is a rating of the maximum ALLOWABLE INPUT TO A SPEAKER..... because, as pointed out, rms has little meaning for speakers.

What most want to know is what size amp is allowable to use, and a proper "program power" rating tells you that. "rms" does not, and thermal ratings do not either.

We used a clipped pink noise signal to test the entire system, 8 or 24 hours.....with a peak clipping at 6dB over average level. That checks everything, excursion, thermal, whatever. If the drivers show no change afterward, that rating is good, you can warranty on that basis.

[BbbyBld]

Peavey found out early on that the power component speakers are usually advertised at IS what Peavey calls "program power". The companies who use the speakers to build cabinets then use that number to rate their cabinets which then have inflated specs. This is what eventually led to Peavey manufacturing speakers, but that's another story. The rating was/is used to level the playing field. In other words, Peavey's "program power" is RMS, continuous, etc. for many other companies. While it may seem misleading, it's actually an attempt to be honest.

[B-string]

Originally Posted by BbbyBld

Peavey found out early on that the power component speakers are usually advertised at IS what Peavey calls "program power". The companies who use the speakers to build cabinets then use that number to rate their cabinets which then have inflated specs. This is what eventually led to Peavey manufacturing speakers, but that's another story. The rating was/is used to level the playing field. In other words, Peavey's "program power" is RMS, continuous, etc. for many other companies. While it may seem misleading, it's actually an attempt to be honest.

Thank you I hope I represented that view okay?

Originally Posted by Jerrold Tiers

maybe there is some confusion?

Seems as if some ("Peavey watts") are confusing the use of "program power" as being some sort of OUTPUT rating for amplifiers......

It is NOT an "amplifier output" rating, we are not talking about the old 8-track player "music power +- 1 dB" here..... I don't know how you would even use "program power" for an "output" rating.

No.......... "Program power" is supposed to be a rating telling you that you can "use the speaker with an amp up to this power".... it is a rating of the maximum ALLOWABLE INPUT TO A SPEAKER..... because, as pointed out, rms has little meaning for speakers.

What most want to know is what size amp is allowable to use, and a proper "program power" rating tells you that. "rms" does not, and thermal ratings do not either.

We used a clipped pink noise signal to test the entire system, 8 or 24 hours.....with a peak clipping at 6dB over average level. That checks everything, excursion, thermal, whatever. If the drivers show no change afterward, that rating is good, you can warranty on that basis.

Actually JT I remember such "high quality" brands at Curtis Mathis and some car audio "radios" of the past claiming a totally bogus "program power" rating for power output (no standards ever adopted so they used it as a marketing number). Several companies attempted to use the term with truth in mind: EV, Peavey, Ampeg, even JBL for a short time and other I can't recall right now and used it only for end power input (speakers). The shysters polluted the term, not reputable companies.

[JimmyM]

Originally Posted by BbbyBld

Peavey found out early on that the power component speakers are usually advertised at IS what Peavey calls "program power". The companies who use the speakers to build cabinets then use that number to rate their cabinets which then have inflated specs. This is what eventually led to Peavey manufacturing speakers, but that's another story. The rating was/is used to level the playing field. In other words, Peavey's "program power" is RMS, continuous, etc. for many other companies. While it may seem misleading, it's actually an attempt to be honest.

Bobby, I'm not trying to pick on you specifically here because Peavey is far from the only company that does it, and I actually like a lot of Peavey stuff. But the Headliner 410 says 800w program power and 1600w peak in the description on your website. Knowing what I know about 410's, I don't see how that's possible.

Again, this has become accepted practice in MI World so I'm not trying to bag only on Peavey, but how could that not be way too big a number for real world operation?

[Jerrold Tiers]

An 800W program would be 1600W peak....... so they would be OK there.

And, an 800W program could be "use with up to 800W amp", or it could be a 410 with 200W (thermal) speakers, rated on a thermal power basis.....

I have no idea what they do, but either of those make sense to me. At least the "use with" interpretation makes actual user sense....although the "peak" rating is not useful unless you want a way to have a large number on the spec....... (unless of course the unit can take 1600W at the low end without flattening the voice coils on the magnets)

As for "program power output", I don't think we at Ampeg/SLM ever used it (you never know) but some other version of Ampeg might have, I don't know every piece of literature ever printed.......

I would suppose that the "high quality" brands you mentioned had "program power" as equal to "music power"...... The way THAT was figured had a transistor radio rated at 10W music power, and most little cheezy 70s stereo record players rated at 200W+.

Usually was quoted as "music power +- 1 dB"..... and was utterly, totally meaningless.

[B-string]

Yes I remember the "music power" also.
Ah, you caught the tongue in cheek with the C.M. reference I hope?

[JimmyM]

Originally Posted by Jerrold Tiers

An 800W program would be 1600W peak....... so they would be OK there.

And, an 800W program could be "use with up to 800W amp", or it could be a 410 with 200W (thermal) speakers, rated on a thermal power basis.....

I have no idea what they do, but either of those make sense to me. At least the "use with" interpretation makes actual user sense....although the "peak" rating is not useful unless you want a way to have a large number on the spec....... (unless of course the unit can take 1600W at the low end without flattening the voice coils on the magnets)

Ya, so why even quote the peak number? Well I know WHY...just not into the whole numbers game because it causes people to blow cabs. There's no reason to blow a cab in this day and age, unless of course the companies tell you that you can use insane wattage with your tiny little cab, despite overwhelming evidence that it's a bad idea.

[Jerrold Tiers]

Originally Posted by B-string

Yes I remember the "music power" also.
Ah, you caught the tongue in cheek with the C.M. reference I hope?

Yah... I didn't think C-M ever really cared, but........

Program, music, whatever........ a program is music, maybe, right? So why not? Makes marketing sense..... just like "new" in huge letters and "box" in tiny ones.