Put a mic on it

[toomanyslurpees]

I had a 96 SVT-CL and used to get the occasional complaint about how hot that DI output was, then the Opamp in the DI circuit kicked the bucket, I think I remember reading something at the time about them being biased quite close to the limit of the opamp... but of course it was the internet...

[Duke21]

Originally Posted by seamonkey

At first glance it seems sensible. When someone believes they have perfected their tone through their amp and cabinet and want that to be mic'ed through the transparent FOH

The player usually perfects their sound with their ears as they stand a few feet away from the cabinet. They should perfect the sound with their ear right up next to the speaker just like where someone is going to place a mic.

Try it yourself, in a studio put one mic up close, and one back a few feet where the bass player normally stands. You can hear which one sounds like what you hear.

Your tone should come from the pre-amp. Use a DI. You'll have more control of your sound out front and in a studio.

But the cab have a lot of effect on the tone! So if you are going to use only the preamp you should use cab sim as well!

[theory028]

I usually go direct. There was one instance where another bassist playing that night wanted to borrow my rig (back when I had the Carvin B1500 + Carvin BR810) and he wanted to mic it with his new Electro-Voice RE20. I thought it sounded great but not necessarily close enough to the actual cab to justify the extra hassle in a live situation. To be fair, the PA system being used wasn't that great and the guy running everything seemed less than thrilled about being there.

When I record something important, I almost always lay down a mic track with the DI track. Even the SM57 knock-off that I have (GLS ES-57) does a decent job. It's hard to complain about flexibility.

[seamonkey]

Originally Posted by Duke21

But the cab have a lot of effect on the tone! So if you are going to use only the preamp you should use cab sim as well!

Absolutely. The cab emulation captured in a studio. With proper mic techniques in the studio. Back away from the cabinet far enough to capture multi-drivers and ports. No 90 degree off axis cardioid where the mics own phasing cancels out part of the sound.

DI out to FOH, add in modeling, emulation, reverb, as I said much better control of your sound out front.

[georgestrings]

Originally Posted by seamonkey

Absolutely. The cab emulation captured in a studio. With proper mic techniques in the studio. Back away from the cabinet far enough to capture multi-drivers and ports. No 90 degree off axis cardioid where the mics own phasing cancels out part of the sound.

DI out to FOH, add in modeling, emulation, reverb, as I said much better control of your sound out front.

No thanks - I think I'll stick to my post-EQ DI send... *to me* "modeling" and "emulation" don't sound real enough - and I certainly don't want any reverb...


- georgestrings

[Bassmec]

Originally Posted by Duke21

But the cab have a lot of effect on the tone! So if you are going to use only the preamp you should use cab sim as well!

Agreed the output of most DI systems don't have much resonance or much else to recommend them in my view.
So if you can't use speakers and mics for some reason and you don't want the delays inherent in software modelling this is an awesome all analogue option I use in studio as a DI.
http://www.motherload.co.uk/products...herload-range/
You can just input line level or it can take a real 100 watt tube amp speaker output soak it completely and safely + output that as line level, ++ a fantastic speaker sim.

[bassfran]

I've done mostly club gigs for the last year and am surprised by the younger sound techs that have wanted to only mic my cab. Since I wanted to avoid the lousy boxes most clubs use I got a new amp with a great D.I. that hardly seems to get any use.

I'm flexible either way- whatever gives the house and the audience the best sounding result is fine with me.

[JimmyM]

Originally Posted by bassfran

I've done mostly club gigs for the last year and am surprised by the younger sound techs that have wanted to only mic my cab. Since I wanted to avoid the lousy boxes most clubs use I got a new amp with a great D.I. that hardly seems to get any use.

You have no idea how happy that makes me, Fran! It shows me that soundmen are finally grasping the concept of the amp being an integral part of the sound of a bassist rather than just taking a super clean DI feed. Super clean solid state DI works for a lot of music but it doesn't work for everything. Ever since I started playing music, it's been an uphill battle for the amp signal to get respect, and it's still very much a DI world for bass, but it does seem to be getting less and less so. I see more mics on bass cabs these days than I ever used to.

[bassfran]

Originally Posted by JimmyM

You have no idea how happy that makes me, Fran! It shows me that soundmen are finally grasping the concept of the amp being an integral part of the sound of a bassist rather than just taking a super clean DI feed. Super clean solid state DI works for a lot of music but it doesn't work for everything. Ever since I started playing music, it's been an uphill battle for the amp signal to get respect, and it's still very much a DI world for bass, but it does seem to be getting less and less so. I see more mics on bass cabs these days than I ever used to.

Right-on, I hear you Brother. What the hell took so long?

Now if they could just get some pants that fit...

[prd004]

I do like to see sounguys mic'ing my cab, but the initial joy turns to disappointment when I see a kick mic in their hand.

My preferences in order are:

Mic/DI blend (an appropriate mic)
Mic (again no kick mics)
DI box
DI from amp is my least favorite method

I have pretty much got to the point where I don't ask, live sound is what it is, you're in the hands of the sound man. The better the soundman the better the sound.

[seamonkey]

Originally Posted by georgestrings

No thanks - I think I'll stick to my post-EQ DI send... *to me* "modeling" and "emulation" don't sound real enough - and I certainly don't want any reverb...


- georgestrings

Not to focus on reverb, it's just one small part of what you can add. One very small part. Most all cabinet emulations are from impulse responses of cabinets, and are recreated through convolution reverb.

Also, I find in some dead rooms adding a little standard room reverb is really helps open things up. I don't think most bass players are ever exposed to good room reverbs and what they can actually do.

What I can control on a recording, I can also control live with a DI, but if there's a FOH engineer, I trust them, I'll recommend how they can process, but it's up to them. They are paid professionals, and they are on the hook to make it sound good in the venue. Which means they may do nothing at other than send the DI out.

[DethByDoom]

Originally Posted by Williamsburgjim

Does anyone mic their cab (Ampeg or otherwise)?

Yup. Live: however sound man does it. Note: ask nice. Recording : sm57 just off center of cone 3 inches away and a d12 center cone a foot away.

[astack]

Originally Posted by bassfran

Right-on, I hear you Brother. What the hell took so long?

Now if they could just get some pants that fit...

Haha. There should be a crack off with plumbers.

I've noticed the increase in mic'ing thing, too. So I've just ran with it: Tube amp sans di and sealed 1-way cabs for me. Need to start packing the SM57...

[bassmatt4792]

I have a GK 700rb-ii into a GK 410RBH. I used to use the built in DI but could ever get a good tone out of it to the FOH. We own our whole FOH and I have zero idea how to fuss with it so I decided to try a mic. I use a SM58 that I had lying around until I can pick up one of those AKG kick mics. Sounds 1000% better than DI. My philosophy- I have an expensive rig, why not capture it's sound?

[astack]

Originally Posted by bassmatt4792

My philosophy- I have an expensive rig, why not capture it's sound?

+a while lot.

I play 95% FOH'd gigs. Bypassing some fancy multi way cab is a waste and mic'ing just it's woofer even more so, imo. Although I do understand Will's point in how that provides self-slotting. Depends on how much of your tone comes from that particular woofer.

[boristhespider7]

Originally Posted by bigchiefbc

I always bring my own mic (akg p2) and stand, and insist on using it. Whenever I show up to a gig and a sound guy wants DI me, I just tell him I have my own, and then plug the XLR into my mic. I have yet to have a sound guy question me twice on that practice.

bigchief, how do you find the P2? Its a mic i've been thinking about too for my LB30 tube amp. Does it have any scooping of the mids? Hows the natural un-eq'd sound? Ever tried the AKG D112? How do they compare?

[Sartori]

Whenever I can, yes. For recording, always. Live sometimes I get a mic, other times the DI comes off the back of the head.

[JimmyM]

Originally Posted by boristhespider7

bigchief, how do you find the P2? Its a mic i've been thinking about too for my LB30 tube amp. Does it have any scooping of the mids? Hows the natural un-eq'd sound? Ever tried the AKG D112? How do they compare?

D112 is my least favorite bass cab mic ever. These are the best somewhat affordable bass cab mics I've used:

EV RE-20
Heil PR40 (back it off the grill 2 or 3 inches and it sounds a lot like an RE-20)
Sennheiser MD421
Beyer M88

However, looking at that P2's specs and response chart, I'd bet money that it would be a really good inexpensive bass cab mic. Never used one, though.

[Arjank]

Originally Posted by seamonkey

Your tone should come from the pre-amp. Use a DI. You'll have more control of your sound out front and in a studio.

+1 +1 +1

Thats the reason I did build my 210 with coaxial mid/high driver and "studio grade" frequency response and smooth off-axis response(power response). I send the post-preamp signal to the PA, this way the sound that I hear from my cab and the sound through the PA will not differ a lot. I only get great comments from the sound guys, they don't need to a lot of EQ-ing to get a good tone through the PA.
The sound should come from your bass+pre-amp. If your basscab allready colors a lot how do you manage to get "your" sound through the PA?
Micing is "ok" if you only run a single 12" or 15", if you have a two or three-way system you will not be able to capture the sound you hear on stage through close micing, never.

[JimmyM]

Originally Posted by Arjank

+1 +1 +1

Thats the reason I did build my 210 with coaxial mid/high driver and "studio grade" frequency response and smooth off-axis response(power response). I send the post-preamp signal to the PA, this way the sound that I hear from my cab and the sound through the PA will not differ a lot. I only get great comments from the sound guys, they don't need to a lot of EQ-ing to get a good tone through the PA.

The sound should come from your bass+pre-amp. If your basscab allready colors a lot how do you manage to get "your" sound through the PA?

What makes you think that the sound coming out of my amp isn't my sound? It's a lot more my sound than the sound of an untreated solid state DI. Only thing I've used for a DI that's as good or better than a mic is the REDDI or a speaker out DI from one of my tube amps.

Micing is "ok" if you only run a single 12" or 15", if you have a two or three-way system you will not be able to capture the sound you hear on stage through close micing, never.

I can only assume you've never tried it.