Putting PA speakers in 810s cab

[RickenTalker]

Has anyone here ever put PA speakers into their cab to help boost their high ends?
I got an old Traynor 810s cab and I was thinking about replacing half of the speakers with PAs to help get more of my high end through and to maybe add a little bit more "character" to my sound.

[silky smoove]

Have you modeled this idea in WinISD, or are you just throwing random speakers at a box?

[Smokin' Toaster]

Let the flaming begin.

Let me give you a tip I learned from experience, Rickentalker: This is TalkBass. Speaker experimentation ist Verboten!! You will calculate, triangulate, meditate, but NOT speculate! Any non-scientifically backed installation of speakers in cabinets will result in extreme flaming and ridicule.

Now if you want to mod a bass, break out the chainsaws, variacs, and glue, anything goes!!!

[billfitzmaurice]

Originally Posted by silky smoove

Have you modeled this idea in WinISD, or are you just throwing random speakers at a box?

The latter, if he had WinISD skills he wouldn't (or at least shouldn't) have posted the question.
OP, this road is a dead end, so hop off it now before going any further.
What may work is replacing all the drivers, but without seeing SPL charts for what's in there now there's no way to predict the outcome. The better route is to sell what you've got and get something you like.

[BassmanPaul]

In a cab that has shelf dividers you can probably do as you suggest with the caveat that it IS the best, and the cheapest, route to find out if your new drivers will work properly in the size of box that you have.

A lot of folk think that if a box has a 10" ,or any other size, hole in it that any driver of the right size will work in that box. That is a complete fallacy. The box and the driver have to work in unison for the best results.

If the cabinet is that old then the drivers are probably not particularly good. If you can fit one in the space you have perhaps a good midrange will give you what you seek.

[greenboy]

I say follow Smokin' Toaster's advice. Just buy a bunch of drivers. You might get lucky. And if you don't, you can BLAME HIM. Win-win, eh? ; }

Seriously, you don't even link a driver you are interested in. Too vague to give any real advice other than WHATEVAH.

[Smokin' Toaster]

Originally Posted by greenboy

I say follow Smokin' Toaster's advice. Just buy a bunch of drivers. You might get lucky. And if you don't, you can BLAME HIM. Win-win, eh? ; }

Would you care to point out the EXACT part of my post where I gave advice about buying drivers?

I was giving advice about people like you and other posters here flaming people who experiment with speakers.



I understand that there is science behind the choice of drivers for a given cabinet. I would advise the OP not to spend a great deal of money on drivers to experiement with. BUT... If he's got some PA cabs with drivers that can be exchanged, or he can pick up some for $5 or $10 apiece, and he doesn't drop or raise the cab's impedence to the point of damaging his amp, what's the problem with experiementing? He may have a happy accident, and then he can go figure out why. He may have a train wreck, then he can go figure out why. Either way, he learns something.

Also, when in comes to speakers, Back in the 80's I worked for a 3 man shop building high-end hi-fi speakers. We competed and beat DCM Time Windows, if that name means anything to anyone here. I learned then to trust my ears as my #1 criteria. After I analyzed what they told me FIRST; then I'd look at facts, figures, frequency response charts and test data, etc. I've seen and heard speakers with impeccable specs that sounded like crap, and some with less than stellar specs that sounded very musical and pleasing.

Yes, I've thrown speakers in cabinets just because they fit, sometimes because the band was on the road and we used what we could get our hands on. Sometimes just because I wanted to see what would happen. There WERE happy accidents and there WERE train wrecks, sonically speaking. But the world never ended, and no laboratory animals were harmed in the process. Hmmmm, I might have started global warming, however.

[GrowlerBox]

Smokin' -- that's all very well, but the OP did ask whether anyone had done it, implying that he was looking for advice concerning the likely outcome of such experimentation. He got it.

I'm all for flying in the face of convention, received wisdom, whatever, but just go do it, and if you have the time/inclination, let us know how it turned out, preferably with some valid and interpretable measurements.

On the other hand, if you're serious about experimentation, it makes sense to be aware of what's already been done in a manner that is, at least in principle, falsifiable, and then build on that. How many variations on the wheel do we really need?

[Smokin' Toaster]

Growler: Your points are well taken. I do have some reservations about your last sentence: "How many variations on the wheel do we really need?"

If you start counting different types and configurations of cabs (or basses or amps for that matter), you may get an answer to that question. Better yet, try to take a players favorite cabinet away and tell him "this is one variation too many and we don't need it."

Just so I'm not misunderstood, I'm not being confrontational here, just good natured debate.

[rpsands]

With how high the vig is on randomly loading speakers in boxes you would be better off buying lottery tickets.

[RickenTalker]

Wow I'm sorta surprised. Y'all actually think I would just put random speakers into a cab and hope for the best? I was just wondering if the idea had been done before or was common practice or something.

Seeing how we are getting technical here, I'll go into a bit more detail as to what I'm thinking.

I bought this cab (70s Traynor 810s) a long with an Acoustic control 450 guitar/bass amp. This is the same set up as JFK's rig from Death From above 1979. I even have the same effects unit and bass he has, so why not go for a similar sound. To give you an idea of the sound here's a video. Death From Above 1979 @ Conan O'Brien

The problem I'm having right now is when I crank up the distortion the sound I'm getting out of the cab is sorta muffled sounding. From what I understand, JFK ended up putting some PA speakers into his cab to help bring out more of the high ends.
He said so here, plus you can look at pictures of his cab and tell that all the speakers are not the same.Death From Above 1979's Jesse Keeler, Bill Leigh, Jonathan Herrera & Greg Olwell


Thankfully when I bought the Traynor cab, It had been fitted with some relatively new speakers. Some Eminence B810s to be precise. these Speaker Detail | Eminence Speaker
And I was thinking about replacing half of the speakers with theseSpeaker Detail | Eminence Speaker although I'm not quite sure the impudence is going to line up correctly

Now where I really need the high frequency's boosted is around 280-2200Hz area and that's where the frequency response of the Bass speakers tends to fall a little bit short. The alphas tend to have a bit more db in the area. Again tho, I'm still doing research, so I might stumble upon a speaker with an even higher dB difference.

Edit: I'm actually not sure those bass speakers are the exact ones in my cab. They are however Eminence speakers. here is a picture ImageShack® - Online Photo and Video Hosting

[billfitzmaurice]

Originally Posted by RickenTalker

Some Eminence B810s to be precise...
And I was thinking about replacing half of the speakers with ...Alpha_10A

Now where I really need the high frequency's boosted is around 280-2200Hz area and that's where the frequency response of the Bass speakers tends to fall a little bit short. The alphas tend to have a bit more db in the area. Again tho, I'm still doing research, so I might stumble upon a speaker with an even higher dB difference.

The Alphas are 8 ohm, the B810s are 32 ohm. The B810s have as much midrange sensitivity as the Alphas. A dB or two here and there is not going to make an appreciable, or for that matter an audible, difference.

[greenboy]

Originally Posted by GrowlerBox

How many variations on the wheel do we really need?

Interesting story goes with that: Reinventing Bicycle Wheels - Round And Round No More! - Coolbuzz

So, even if you are reinventing the wheel it pays to have some smarts about it, or you just end up with this:

[Sartori]

Originally Posted by Smokin' Toaster

Would you care to point out the EXACT part of my post where I gave advice about buying drivers?

I was giving advice about people like you and other posters here flaming people who experiment with speakers.

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

[billfitzmaurice]

Originally Posted by Sartori

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

No picture? Wait, I know I have it here somewhere....

[GrowlerBox]

Originally Posted by Smokin' Toaster

Growler: Your points are well taken. I do have some reservations about your last sentence: "How many variations on the wheel do we really need?"

If you start counting different types and configurations of cabs (or basses or amps for that matter), you may get an answer to that question. Better yet, try to take a players favorite cabinet away and tell him "this is one variation too many and we don't need it."

Just so I'm not misunderstood, I'm not being confrontational here, just good natured debate.

No confrontation assumed .

My point, I guess, is that the wheel now becomes the new starting point for the next innovation (e.g. greenboy's example, at one rather odd extreme) -- those types and configurations of cabs, etc that you mention were arrived at by building on the findings and products of previous designers, not by throwing together whatever was to hand and hoping to chance. While such could be done, and could even potentially result in a winner, it's not a particularly efficient way to go about design (one might equally reference greenboy's example here).

It appears that the OP is not quite throwing random boxes and speakers together, but I have to say it doesn't sound far from it given his description of the process so far. And so far, I think he's on the money -- "I'm not quite sure the impudence is going to line up correctly". Impudent indeed.

[BogeyBass]

RickenTalker, using mismatched speakers in a cabinet does not work well at all.
Its better to have all matching speakers.

The trade off goes either way as far as getting highend and lowend from a 10" speaker

A speaker with more sensitivity and highend will usually have less Linear Maximum Excursion (xmax) so they will distort much faster with lower bass notes, but have the capability to produce more highs.

if your willing to make that trade, and going with the cost of replacing all 8 drivers then go for it.

The inductance of a speaker (Le) is a electrical property which will have a big impact on the actual high end a speaker can produce. among other mechanical things as well such as the cone and suspension.

The inductance (Le) of a voice coil will have a Low pass characteristic, so speakers with high inductance will tend to be very muddy.
The eminence B810 has a very high Le at 2.72mH which makes it a extremely muddy speaker. but it has a fairly high xmax of 4.7mm which allows it to produce low frequencies very well, with a trade off of having a very low sensitivity of 92dB.

an average 10" speaker is around 1 to .60mH
so if your looking for highend look for a speaker with a low Le in the .60 to .80mH range.

An Alpha has a inductance of .66mH compared to 2.72mH for the B810 and will have way more high end. Also you will gain sensitivity with the alpha at 95dB compared to the B810 at 92dB. The trade off is much less lowend response and more distortion.

hopefully you will find something in your price range, that still has a decent xmax in the 3 to 4mm range. good luck because their isn't many.

also it looks like your cabinet has no damping material...so adding some will improve the midrange....and help remove some of the response dips that form with shallow undampened cabinets. I would try that first before spending money on speakers.

[JimmyM]

geez, what better speakers are out there for an 810 than the b810's? i would think they'd work plenty great with a very nice high end. you're not going to get more high end than that out of any speakers that are good for bass. get them going too high and you lose low end response and power handling capabilities. might as well use guitar speakers at that rate. i'd stick with what you have.

[Arjank]

Originally Posted by JimmyM

geez, what better speakers are out there for an 810 than the b810's? i would think they'd work plenty great with a very nice high end. you're not going to get more high end than that out of any speakers that are good for bass. get them going too high and you lose low end response and power handling capabilities. might as well use guitar speakers at that rate. i'd stick with what you have.

I would also go for these.
These b810's have the specs for closed cabinets.
If you want some "high-end" mid/high response you could add a separate cabinet with two 6" mids (line them vertically to keep horizontal dispersion, or you can line them up under a 60degree(or so) angle so that one driver points to the left side one points to the right side) and run the system bi-amped with an active crossover or dsp.

[Jools4001]

Originally Posted by Sartori

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

I'd have thought a Smokin' Toaster would know exactly what flaming was

Here's my uneducated take on it. Good tone is rare and elusive so I always think that speaker design is like looking for (sonic?) gold. If you're looking for gold it's probably better to do the research and find out where there's a rich seam to mine, or, you can go and find a random stream and try your luck panning for it. You may get lucky and strike it rich first time, happy accidents do happen, but you're more likely to have to sift an awful lot of sh.. before you find a few small nuggets.