Question about GB Uber, Berg AE, and Avatar neo 212's

[ledyard]

I'm considering these three cabs. I would be going from using Ampeg 8x10's and Mesa Powerhouse 1000 most recently. I have always used big cabs. For obvious reasons.
Initially I will only be able to afford one of whichever I choose(except Avatar). I will get a second one as soon as its feasable.

So will either of these cabs make me feel let down after this transition? Especially while I only have one? Then again after I aquire a second? How much air do these small monsters move?
How much better will two be than one?

I play old school rock n roll. My playing is very in the ballpark of Geezer. I use a P bass. I have no doubt I will love it with a 6 string Cirrus playing in the Jazz/prog/improv trio I am trying to get off the ground.

The avatar is very tempting at basically 2 for the price of either of the other brands. I have never heard a bad word on avatar as I can remember. But are they really up to what could be the "most elite" Berg and Uber?

[pablomigraine]

Having owned all of the above, as well as the SVT, I can answer this....

First off, you're looking at completely different design philosophies from what you've been playing. Any of the three you mentioned couldn't possibly be more different in terms of tone and performance from your SVT810. Small volume per driver sealed 810 Vs. Medium - Large volume per driver ported cabinets. Be prepared for that. The main things you will notice are; more *apparent low bass... although sealed cabinets actually go lower than ported cabinets on account of the steep roll-off ported cabinets have below the port tuning frequency... ported cabs produce higher sound pressure levels, especially at or near the tuning frequency (usually in the 40hz range). You'll also be gaining a tweeter. If your sound calls for a great deal of overdrive or distortion, you're probably gonna wanna turn that off, as OD and DIST sound terrible through a tweeter. Another thing to pay attention to should you be using overdrive & distortion, is the crossover frequency of each cabinet. IF you're going to be turning the tweeter off, and the crossover point is relatively low (3.5khz is a common x-over point, some cabs are even lower than that), you'll want to select a cabinet that has the highest crossover point possible, otherwise your tone will sound muffled and possibly not bright enough. Another thing you'll notice is a more *immediate and *fatter tone... sealed cabinets' speakers experience resistance from the air in the chambers (acoustic suspension) which cause them to behave in a specific way, ported cabinets do not... or at least not to the degree sealed cabinets do.

As far as the specific cabinets themselves... first off you're talking about good, better, best. The Avatar cabinets are an amazing value for the money... and to my ears sound much clearer, deeper and accurate than many "big name" manufacturer's cabinets costing greatly more. However, bear in mind, these cabinets are not computer tuned... it's still just four like-kind drivers tossed into a box that may or may not roughly approximate the internal volume and port characteristics appropriate for those drivers. They are also probably not properly braced against internal resonance, and probably don't have an appropriate amount of acoustic batting or stuffing.

The GB Uber cabs are, IMHO, the best *non-boutique cabinets out there. You can find threads here comparing these to MUCH more expensive cabinets and faring quite well. These cabs are loud like you wouldn't believe. You will NOT regret moving from an SVT to this cabinet in terms of apparent volume, take it from me. These are extremely well made, and are reasonably light. The sound is very aggressive, and can be made to reasonably approximate "vintage" with a little tweaking on the tweeter L-pad. Fantastic cabs. Far superior to any offerings from Ampeg, GK, Mesa, Hartke, MB or anyone else in this price range.

The Bergantino is the benchmark of excellence in whatever format we're talking about. The NV610 trounces the SVT810, the AE212 CRUSHES every other 212 on the market, and the AE410 & HS 410 are the finest cabinets in the 410 format you can buy with money, from anywhere, for any sound. As good as the GB cabs are, you will immediately notice a difference with the Bergs. The best way I can describe it is like this... there's just more *information* coming out of the Bergs... listening to other cabs makes you feel like you're not getting all the sound. This is not to say that this cab has a particular "hump" or "scoop" as some cabinets do... this is a perfectly even cabinet that reproduces the entire frequency spectrum equally and correctly. Many people find they want to upgrade their amplifier after moving to Berg cabs... as small weaknesses or "voicing" inherent in their amps become more apparent when used with the Bergs. And its LOUD. Like insanely, ridiculously loud for being a 410. It's properly constructed, properly braced, and is loaded with tons of acoustic stuffing. A truly amazing cab.

My Vote.... go for the GB, or save a few bucks and do the Berg. You cant really go wrong with either.

[ledyard]

Amazingly informative and helpful post !!! Holy crap!! Thanks.

For me, I do not like tweeters at all. If I have them in a cab I turn them off. I am actually currently using a Mesa PH1000 cab. Because it blows 8x10's out of the water. (although i still love 8x10's). But I want to get back to using one speaker size in a cab not mixed like the mesa.

If you were working with a limitet budget initially you would go with a single Uber or the AE as opposed to a pair of Avatar correct?
Heres the stuff I use it for:
heres two extreme ends of the spectrum for us
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DJAbx...B18EC0B91B22D3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IE013...eature=related

[craig.p]

You're going to use a 6-string, and playing jazz, which means you'll be placing value on mids?

If so, I'd strike the Avatars from your list. The B212 is a heavy/thick-sounding bass cab, loaded with OEM Eminences that push more air than the over-the-counter ones but sacrifice midrange in order to accomplish that. If you're after Avatar, you might be better served by a pair of TB153s, since those don't go AWOL in the midrange the way the B212s do. Problem with a pair, however, is that you can't buy above/below mirror pairs. (Though I just emailed them & suggested a TB153-T: reversed baffle board. We'll see what comes of it.)

If it were just a P-bass and just rock 'n' roll, the B212s would be suitable.

[musicxfactor]

Originally Posted by pablomigraine

As far as the specific cabinets themselves... first off you're talking about good, better, best. The Avatar cabinets are an amazing value for the money... and to my ears sound much clearer, deeper and accurate than many "big name" manufacturer's cabinets costing greatly more. However, bear in mind, these cabinets are not computer tuned...

Not true as far as not using computer tuning. I usually don't get involved in the cab discussions, but had to chime in on this.
Also, any cab will sound as good as the amp driving it.

[ledyard]

Originally Posted by craig.p

You're going to use a 6-string, and playing jazz, which means you'll be placing value on mids?

If so, I'd strike the Avatars from your list. The B212 is a heavy/thick-sounding bass cab, loaded with OEM Eminences that push more air than the over-the-counter ones but sacrifice midrange in order to accomplish that. If you're after Avatar, you might be better served by a pair of TB153s, since those don't go AWOL in the midrange the way the B212s do. Problem with a pair, however, is that you can't buy above/below mirror pairs. (Though I just emailed them & suggested a TB153-T: reversed baffle board. We'll see what comes of it.)

If it were just a P-bass and just rock 'n' roll, the B212s would be suitable.

The 6 string thing is just a side project possibility. The links are to what i do full time.

[pablomigraine]

OP: take it from me, I play in a progessive / technical hardcore band with a very loud drummer and two Mesa Triple Rectifier halfstacks... you will NOT need a second UB410 or AE410. Forget about whatever other 410s you may have used in the past.... provided you have a sufficiently powerful amplifier, both of these cabs are INSANELY loud. Way louder than SVT810 and at least as good as the PH1000. Try out the AE and see if Im wrong. You will never need a second Berg.

[nostatic]

Über Quad would be another speaker to consider. I do love my Berg AEs though...

[WJGreer]

I know I'm in the minority, but here goes. I sold an Avatar Neo 410 to buy a Bergantino AE410 for almost 3x the cost and eventually wished I hadn't. The Berg did sound better, but to my ears the difference was incremental, not revolutionary. They sounded more similar than different, and on stage in an amplified band situation, the bass player would probably be the only person noticing any difference at all. For me, the improvement did not justify the cost of the AE410 over the Avatar.

This was a 410 comparison, of course. I've owned an Avatar 212, but have never played an AE212, which I do hear is an excellent cabinet. But I have no basis to compare.

Although I really like Genz-Benz amps, I have avoided the Uber cabinet line because they seem to be differentiated from the other popular production cabinets of the moment mainly by how heavy they are. I'm on two 210s right now (Edens, BTW), which are working very well for me.

[RickenBoogie]

I can only say that the GB Uber 212 IS a better sounding cab than anything else in it's price range, and though Avatar cabs are "good for the money", they are not in the same league as the others you listed.

[ledyard]

Originally Posted by pablomigraine

OP: take it from me, I play in a progessive / technical hardcore band with a very loud drummer and two Mesa Triple Rectifier halfstacks... you will NOT need a second UB410 or AE410. Forget about whatever other 410s you may have used in the past.... provided you have a sufficiently powerful amplifier, both of these cabs are INSANELY loud. Way louder than SVT810 and at least as good as the PH1000. Try out the AE and see if Im wrong. You will never need a second Berg.

This is extremely helpful in relation to my situation.

BUT there is a new problem:

Heres what I am having an issue with as I have been reading the last hour or so.

My current rig: SVT II through Mesa Powerhouse 1000 (15/410). Keep in mind for loud rehearsals I run the Amp on 3-3.5. Stage volumes get loud, 3-4.5 depending.

Wanting to go 212 x 2. However.....I want to power the whole thing with a Streamliner 900. There is NO 2 ohm option. So two Berg 212 or two Uber 212's are out of the question. Both are 4 ohm so running 2 together is not possible with the SL900.
With Avatar I could run two 8 ohm 2x12 at 4 ohm through the SL900.
The SL is going to have to be run at 4 ohms. Theres no way playing in a two vintage marshall guitarist band that one cab with two speakers running at 8 ohm (500 watts) is going to cut it.
Mind you until I sell my Mesa I will be running the SL900 through that so all is fine there. Selling my mesa will be funding my new cabs. Just as Selling my SVT is funding the SL900.

The other thing is....I could change my mind and go with a 410. One 4 ohm cab certainly would cut it. But I'm always going to want two cabs. Thats the kind of person I am. Always went with one head, one big cab. Bang, done. Now going with smaller and two cabs I'm hating having to play the ohms game.

[pablomigraine]

Originally Posted by WJGreer

I know I'm in the minority, but here goes. I sold an Avatar Neo 410 to buy a Bergantino AE410 for almost 3x the cost and eventually wished I hadn't. The Berg did sound better, but to my ears the difference was incremental, not revolutionary. They sounded more similar than different, and on stage in an amplified band situation, the bass player would probably be the only person noticing any difference at all. For me, the improvement did not justify the cost of the AE410 over the Avatar.

This was a 410 comparison, of course. I've owned an Avatar 212, but have never played an AE21i2, which I do hear is an excellent cabinet. But I have no basis to compare.

Although I really like Genz-Benz amps, I have avoided the Uber cabinet line because they seem to be differentiated from the other popular production cabinets of the moment mainly by how heavy they are. I'm on two 210s right now (Edens, BTW), which are working very well for me.

Wow.... that is the first time I've heard that.... to me, the two are in completely different worlds... providing everything else in the signal chain is of reasonably good quality... of course everything is relative, everyones ear is different, but what you hear as being incremental differences are differences many players feel the don't ever want to be without again, having been exposed to them... again IMHO, FWIW, YMMV ETC ETC

[pablomigraine]

Originally Posted by ledyard

This is extremely helpful in relation to my situation.

BUT there is a new problem:

Heres what I am having an issue with as I have been reading the last hour or so.

My current rig: SVT II through Mesa Powerhouse 1000 (15/410). Keep in mind for loud rehearsals I run the Amp on 3-3.5. Stage volumes get loud, 3-4.5 depending.

Wanting to go 212 x 2. However.....I want to power the whole thing with a Streamliner 900. There is NO 2 ohm option. So two Berg 212 or two Uber 212's are out of the question. Both are 4 ohm so running 2 together is not possible with the SL900.
With Avatar I could run two 8 ohm 2x12 at 4 ohm through the SL900.
The SL is going to have to be run at 4 ohms. Theres no way playing in a two vintage marshall guitarist band that one cab with two speakers running at 8 ohm (500 watts) is going to cut it.
Mind you until I sell my Mesa I will be running the SL900 through that so all is fine there. Selling my mesa will be funding my new cabs. Just as Selling my SVT is funding the SL900.

The other thing is....I could change my mind and go with a 410. One 4 ohm cab certainly would cut it. But I'm always going to want two cabs. Thats the kind of person I am. Always went with one head, one big cab. Bang, done. Now going with smaller and two cabs I'm hating having to play the ohms game.

Well if you know yourself and you know you're always gonna want two cabs.... there's no sense fighting it!! Here's what I recommend if you're going to be running the streamliner: buy the UB410 in the 4ohm configuration. Run that for a few months and save up your pennies... if you still feel like you want two cabs after some time... sell your 4 ohm UB410 (the resale is very good on these, and you may get lucky and find someone who will swap you their 8ohm for your 4ohm) and then buy a second UB 410. Then you'll have two cabs at 4 ohms total load!! Do it!!

PS- I would hunt around and try to get some opinions from people who use the Avatars without the tweeter... I have no experience here... but I can tell you the UB series lends itself quite well to overdrive and sounds quite sweet with the tweeter turned off...


(Bear in mind I'm a GB endorser)

[ledyard]

Originally Posted by pablomigraine

Well if you know yourself and you know you're always gonna want two cabs.... there's no sense fighting it!! Here's what I recommend if you're going to be running the streamliner: buy the UB410 in the 4ohm configuration. Run that for a few months and save up your pennies... if you still feel like you want two cabs after some time... sell your 4 ohm UB410 (the resale is very good on these, and you may get lucky and find someone who will swap you their 8ohm for your 4ohm) and then buy a second UB 410. Then you'll have two cabs at 4 ohms total load!! Do it!!

PS- I would hunt around and try to get some opinions from people who use the Avatars without the tweeter... I have no experience here... but I can tell you the UB series lends itself quite well to overdrive and sounds quite sweet with the tweeter turned off...




(Bear in mind I'm a GB endorser)

No matter the cab, if it has a tweeter I will turn it off. I hate them. I had considered also buying a pair of Avatar 410's in 8 ohm so I can run them in 4 ohm with the streamliner and also use them with any other head. Everyone has 4 ohm and ofcourse alot dont offer 2 ohm. Then saving my cash as I would be anyhow and then Springing for either a Berg or Uber 212 or 410 in 4 ohm. So I could run both a one cab and a two cab rig in 4 ohm.

[craig.p]

Ledyard, I agree with your desire for two cabs. There's that "something" that happens when you add that second cab, even when the drivers aren't properly arrayed for optimal tie-in.

A Streamliner driving a pair of B212s? My big rig is a QSC RMX1450 driving a pair of eight-ohm B212s (280+280) and that rig will blow you right into next week (let alone deafen you) if you're not careful, so I'd expect the Streamliner driving the same pair would be even more impressive. Assuming you like the B212's tone, which is thick and heavy but without feeling slow.

I'd be the last to argue that the high-end cabs can eat the Avatars' lunch. If I ever felt the need to take a significant step up, it'd definitely be to a Berg NV-something. It's just that for what I do, the perceivable difference would be incremental at best (which is Will's point).

[Kael]

Originally Posted by musicxfactor

Also, any cab will sound as good as the amp driving it.

This is a completely inaccurate statement. The cab/speaker is what is actually producing the sound. If the cab/speaker sucks then it won't reproduce a good sound regardless of how high quality the amp is.

[ledyard]

Originally Posted by craig.p

Ledyard, I agree with your desire for two cabs. There's that "something" that happens when you add that second cab, even when the drivers aren't properly arrayed for optimal tie-in.

A Streamliner driving a pair of B212s? My big rig is a QSC RMX1450 driving a pair of eight-ohm B212s (280+280) and that rig will blow you right into next week (let alone deafen you) if you're not careful, so I'd expect the Streamliner driving the same pair would be even more impressive. Assuming you like the B212's tone, which is thick and heavy but without feeling slow.

I'd be the last to argue that the high-end cabs can eat the Avatars' lunch. If I ever felt the need to take a significant step up, it'd definitely be to a Berg NV-something. It's just that for what I do, the perceivable difference would be incremental at best (which is Will's point).

What type of music do you play? Type of basses?

[craig.p]

Kael, yeah, I caught that, too, but it coulda been semantics, LOL. I think he meant to say that a cab will sound no better than the amp driving it.

[craig.p]

Led, I play either country/western or heavy dance, thus no need for any significant midrange, and never any need for highs. I'm another one who hates tweeters.

Bass #1 is a '73 Ric that's the equivalent of an old 4000 (long story), with its pickup run directly to the output jack. It has a 30-year-old Rotosound RS66 set on it. Bass #2 is a Charvel/Jackson PJ clone with on-board preamp with bass+treble; I kick the bass control up a TINY bit and leave the treble flat. It has an RS66 set, too, but light gauge. I play all finger style, no slap (the Jamerson career-limiting style, LOL).

[ledyard]

I dont slap but I need all the things you dont I like grindy, snotty mids available. I like a smoother high end, I dont want that clicky or ice pick high. Or that Appetite, Duff Mckagen treble bass sound. Another bass sound I hate is Dave Ellefson.
For me .....playing rock, listen to the first track off Heaven and Hell's last album. Then jump to the origional Black Sabbath bass tones. To bands like Mountain, Cream, ect.

But theres a slight chance the 2nd band (a metal band) I am/was in is getting back together. Then I would be playing something like a Cirrus or a Spector and seeking thick semi clean punch.
With these cab options I'm trying to cover all my bases. Theres the trio possibility i mentioned in the first post too.
If I had the cash then I would get a pair of these and one of those ect ect....for different applications. But like most of us......I dont.