Question about purchasing first modular rig.

[BWileyTally]

I'm pretty new to the bass scene. I'm a converted guitarist (wahoo!!) and I have a couple of questions. I have a very limited budget, say $600-$800 dollars. I have had a fender rumble practice amp which I just blew that I picked up for $30 bucks at a pawn shop that lasted for 5 months. I've been drowned out this whole time. Time for a new amp.

From reading the forums I've decided I don't want another combo. I'm gonna go modular. Here is my bands situation. Our drummer is loud, VERY LOUD. We don't want to change that. We have 3 guitarists (one lead, one krunch/rhythm, and one acoustic/singer) each pushing out over 100 watts in their respected amps. I am wanting something that's going to cut through all of this.

I am looking at a Carvin r1000 tomorrow from a guy for $200. Leaving $400-$600 to play with.

My question is this more specifically. Would you go with the Avatar 210 ceramic (rated at 700 watts, as this amp on 8ohm bridged setting will do 700 watts) or is there something else that I can use? Is the 210 going to cut through the "noise"?

Am I paying too much attention on watts? I can always add a second 210 cab in the future for when we start gigging (say 3-4 months down the road).

Any other suggestions perhaps?

[dukeisdog]

Originally Posted by BWileyTally

I'm pretty new to the bass scene. I'm a converted guitarist (wahoo!!) and I have a couple of questions. I have a very limited budget, say $600-$800 dollars. I have had a fender rumble practice amp which I just blew that I picked up for $30 bucks at a pawn shop that lasted for 5 months. I've been drowned out this whole time. Time for a new amp.

From reading the forums I've decided I don't want another combo. I'm gonna go modular. Here is my bands situation. Our drummer is loud, VERY LOUD. We don't want to change that. We have 3 guitarists (one lead, one krunch/rhythm, and one acoustic/singer) each pushing out over 100 watts in their respected amps. I am wanting something that's going to cut through all of this.

I am looking at a Carvin r1000 tomorrow from a guy for $200. Leaving $400-$600 to play with.

My question is this more specifically. Would you go with the Avatar 210 ceramic (rated at 700 watts, as this amp on 8ohm bridged setting will do 700 watts) or is there something else that I can use? Is the 210 going to cut through the "noise"?

Am I paying too much attention on watts? I can always add a second 210 cab in the future for when we start gigging (say 3-4 months down the road).

Any other suggestions perhaps?

Chances are that a single 210 is not going to be enough, I know it wouldn't for me. I would suggest either a 410 or a 212 to start, go bigger if you can.

[CL400Peavey]

Originally Posted by dukeisdog

Chances are that a single 210 is not going to be enough, I know it wouldn't for me. I would suggest either a 410 or a 212 to start, go bigger if you can.

I dont think a 410 will keep up with the guitard volume he is talking about. 3 guitard with 100 watt heads?

I would look for a head in the 300-500 watt range, but I would pair it with an 810 cab (shop used). If the band you are playing with is really that loud, then anything smaller isnt going to cut it. An 810 rated at 400 watts is going to be louder than a 210 rated at 700 watts. More speakers will move more air.

Also roll off your lows, kick up your mids. It will net you way more volume (and you wont be popping speakers all the time) out of what ever rig you get.

[lomo]

As far a svolume goes, speaker cone area is MUCH more important than power. That head is good for the bucks. I recommend finding an 8 Ohm 410, so you can add another 410 when you have the cash. Then you'll be stylin'

[BWileyTally]

Originally Posted by lomo

As far a svolume goes, speaker cone area is MUCH more important than power. That head is good for the bucks. I recommend finding an 8 Ohm 410, so you can add another 410 when you have the cash. Then you'll be stylin'

Yeah, I'm pretty much on this same line of thinking.

I'm still unclear about the watts issue. Is it important for the speaker to have the same watts rating as the amp head? I know there are threads discussing this but everyone goes into mathematical formulas and it just throws me off when they get off watts and go into ohms, I understand the ohms. If watts don't need to match the amp head, what is a good ratio of watts per cabinet to that of the head to not risk damage? 2-1? I know not to turn up the head fully, but am not to clear on how they relate. Or am I really just stuck on watts.....

[CL400Peavey]

Originally Posted by BWileyTally

Yeah, I'm pretty much on this same line of thinking.

I'm still unclear about the watts issue. Is it important for the speaker to have the same watts rating as the amp head? I know there are threads discussing this but everyone goes into mathematical formulas and it just throws me off when they get off watts and go into ohms, I understand the ohms. If watts don't need to match the amp head, what is a good ratio of watts per cabinet to that of the head to not risk damage? 2-1? I know not to turn up the head fully, but am not to clear on how they relate. Or am I really just stuck on watts.....

Almost all cabs have a THERMAL wattage rating, this does not translate to sound out put. If your cab is rated at 400 watts, you realistically cant push more than 200 watts through it with out reaching the physical limitations of the cab. So I would look for a 2:1 ratio on cab:head power handling.

[jsbarber]

Originally Posted by BWileyTally

Yeah, I'm pretty much on this same line of thinking.

I'm still unclear about the watts issue. Is it important for the speaker to have the same watts rating as the amp head? I know there are threads discussing this but everyone goes into mathematical formulas and it just throws me off when they get off watts and go into ohms, I understand the ohms. If watts don't need to match the amp head, what is a good ratio of watts per cabinet to that of the head to not risk damage? 2-1? I know not to turn up the head fully, but am not to clear on how they relate. Or am I really just stuck on watts.....

The one thing you do not want to do with a solid state head is use a cabinet configuration that produces a load that is below the minimum load that the head can power. This can damage your head. If you get an 8 ohm 410, and then a second later you should be fine, assuming your head can handle a 4 ohm load.

If the head can produce more power, watts, than the maximum of the cabinet then be careful you don't damage the cabinet. But if your head can handle a 4 ohm load and you put an 8 ohm cabinet on it the actual output will probably be about half of what it would produce into a 4 ohm load, so you'll probably not have an issue with this.

[Actually, I found your manual online. Apparently your head has two output channels which can be bridged. The head will produce 700 watts into an 8 ohm load when bridged. You should be fine with an 8 ohm 410 with this. The head will produce 1000 watts into a 4 ohm load when bridged, so you should be in good shape when you add the second 8 ohm 410. Here's the link to your manual:

http://www.carvinservice.com/crg/man...-seriesiii.pdf

]

Jim

[BWileyTally]

Originally Posted by jsbarber

The one thing you do not want to do with a solid state head is use a cabinet configuration that produces a load that is below the minimum load that the head can power. This can damage your head. If you get an 8 ohm 410, and then a second later you should be fine, assuming your head can handle a 4 ohm load.

If the head can produce more power, watts, than the maximum of the cabinet then be careful you don't damage the cabinet. But if your head can handle a 4 ohm load and you put an 8 ohm cabinet on it the actual output will probably be about half of what it would produce into a 4 ohm load, so you'll probably not have an issue with this.

Jim

Amp specs say at 8-ohm unbridged it will put out 225 watts, if its run at 8-ohm *bridged* it will put out 700 watts. This should give me a pretty fair amount of headroom and I shouldn't have to turn the amp up too much to get the necessary volume. 4-ohm unbridged will do 350 watts and *bridged* will put out the max 1000 watts. I would have plenty of room for growth I would suspect. I would just have to keep the amp down right.

[BWileyTally]

How do you think the Carvin BR410 would do with this setup? Its 8 ohm at 800 watts so I shouldn't have any trouble with volume in this scenario.

[jsbarber]

I think most 8 ohm 410s will be able to handle the 700 watts from the head, if you run it bridged. The modular 2X410 rig configuration looks like a good fit for your needs.

Jim

[CL400Peavey]

Dont get too caught up in the Watts game. You will gain much more volume from additional speaker cone area than sheer watts. 200 Watts will be just as loud as 1,000 through a 210. This will be limited by the physical limitations of the cab, not the amount of current your head can push. The reason those big Ampeg rigs are so loud is the cabinet used, they are only a 300 watt head.

Also say the average 410 is rated somewhere between 600-1000 Watts. This is the thermal rating, the amount of current that the voice coil can handle before it fails. This is not how much current the speaker can handle before it reaches its physical limitations. That is somewhere around half of the thermal limit.

If you are worried about volume get a bigger cab, this is the best place to spend money to improve your tone and volume. With all this being said I have an 810, powered by a head that has just 400 watts. This combo is loud, really loud, will break the windows at my drummers house loud.

Spend the money on a used 810.

[BWileyTally]

Originally Posted by CL400Peavey

Dont get too caught up in the Watts game. You will gain much more volume from additional speaker cone area than sheer watts. 200 Watts will be just as loud as 1,000 through a 210. This will be limited by the physical limitations of the cab, not the amount of current your head can push. The reason those big Ampeg rigs are so loud is the cabinet used, they are only a 300 watt head.

Also say the average 410 is rated somewhere between 600-1000 Watts. This is the thermal rating, the amount of current that the voice coil can handle before it fails. This is not how much current the speaker can handle before it reaches its physical limitations. That is somewhere around half of the thermal limit.

If you are worried about volume get a bigger cab, this is the best place to spend money to improve your tone and volume. With all this being said I have an 810, powered by a head that has just 400 watts. This combo is loud, really loud, will break the windows at my drummers house loud.

Spend the money on a used 810.

Good point.

It seems I am caught up in the watts as power, but I've heard bass needs 2-5x the watt output of the guitarists combined. Being new to bass (perhaps only 5 month) I'm not positive on that adage. Seems like the only thing bass needs is total speaker cone area pushing more air than the guitarists?

Also, guy on craigslist has an Accoustic 810 cabinet for $375. Does this seem like overkill? (if that is even possible ) Or am I way over the top.....

[CL400Peavey]

Originally Posted by BWileyTally

Good point.

It seems I am caught up in the watts as power, but I've heard bass needs 2-5x the watt output of the guitarists combined. Being new to bass (perhaps only 5 month) I'm not positive on that adage. Seems like the only thing bass needs is total speaker cone area pushing more air than the guitarists?

Also, guy on craigslist has an Accoustic 810 cabinet for $375. Does this seem like overkill? (if that is even possible ) Or am I way over the top.....

810 really isnt overkill, if you are loud turn down that is what some of those knobs are for. I play with an 810 at practice. Our drummer is crazy loud, and there are two guitards with +100 watt 412 half stacks. I never fail to be heard and never push my cab into farting out, I also wear ear plugs at practice. When it finally gets loud to the point of other people complaining I just get everyone to turn down.

Depending on the condition that might be about right. There was a thread not that long ago about someone selling that cab to guitar center. GC will only give you about $200 for one of those in good condition because thats about what they pay for them new. If its in great condition then $375 is ok (if a little high) if its in so so condition then this is a bit high, and if its usable condition but looks ugly then this is way to high. I would tell him $300 off the get go even if its in good condition.

810 cabs have terrible resale value, so if you want one you can find them for a decent price. I would hold out and spend $600 or so on a better cab. If you hunt around you can even get a really great Ampeg 810 close to that range.

That being said, an Acoustic 810 will be loud, even if its not the best cab in the world.