Question about using two cabs?

[Dudelike89]

I was talking to a guitar center worker the other day about how I wanted a Mesa Powerhouse 1200 and a Mesa Powerhouse 2x10 for my rig. He brought up that running those two together ((4x10 + 1x15) + 2x10) would causing phasing issues because the 2x10 would be trying to match the volume of the 1200. Is this true? I never thought of it before, but it kind of makes sense I suppose. So would running a large cab like the 1200 with 4x10 and 1x15 all in the cab in conjunction with a smaller cab like a 2x10 cause issues?

And if that's the case, wouldn't a 4x10 and a 1x15 two cab setup cause phasing issues as well? Thanks for any replies.

Andrew

[Jim Campbell]

Originally Posted by Dudelike89

I was talking to a guitar center worker the other day about how I wanted a Mesa Powerhouse 1200 and a Mesa Powerhouse 2x10 for my rig. He brought up that running those two together ((4x10 + 1x15) + 2x10) would causing phasing issues because the 2x10 would be trying to match the volume of the 1200. Is this true? I never thought of it before, but it kind of makes sense I suppose. So would running a large cab like the 1200 with 4x10 and 1x15 all in the cab in conjunction with a smaller cab like a 2x10 cause issues?

And if that's the case, wouldn't a 4x10 and a 1x15 two cab setup cause phasing issues as well? Thanks for any replies.

Andrew

not so much phase ..... it is that the 4x10 will get the same power as the 1x15 given the same resistance,therefore the volume of the 4x10 will be limited by the capacity of the 1x15....the 1x15 will flake before the 4x10 gets up to it's potential...best to use 2 identical cabs,

[dmusic148]

Yes, yes and yes- HOWEVER those 'issues' sometimes sound really good. You must let your ears decide.

[Rockmusician]

I once had a Guitar Center employee tell me that Gallien Krueger cabinets can run with Ampeg heads because according to him, GK is made in Europe. He obviousily didn't know what he was talking about. Sound like the person you dealt with. Phasing will not be an issue. You have to worry about the impedance you are running. Find out how many ohms each cabinet runs are and how many ohms your head can handle.

If you are running two 8 ohm cabinets you are actually running at 4 ohms. Two 4 ohm cabinets run at 2 ohms. However, if you run a 4 ohm and a 2 ohm cabinet together you are running at 2.6 ohms

This website might help

http://www.gollihurmusic.com/faq/31-...RSPECTIVE.html

[Jim Campbell]

Originally Posted by Rockmusician

I once had a Guitar Center employee tell me that Gallien Krueger cabinets can run with Ampeg heads because according to him, GK is made in Europe. He obviousily didn't know what he was talking about. Sound like the person you dealt with. Phasing will not be an issue. You have to worry about the impedance you are running. Find out how many ohms each cabinet runs are and how many ohms your head can handle.

If you are running two 8 ohm cabinets you are actually running at 4 ohms. Two 4 ohm cabinets run at 2 ohms. However, if you run a 4 ohm and a 2 ohm cabinet together you are running at 2.6 ohms

This website might help

http://www.gollihurmusic.com/faq/31-...RSPECTIVE.html

i think the point the store guy was trying to make is the uneven power handling of the 2 cabs....suppose you have a 400 watt head @ 4ohm driving a 1x15 and a 4x10 both @ 8 ohms.....while the 1x15 may be close to it's saturation point at the 200 watts it receives,the 4x10 will be hardly working

[Bass_Pounder]

Originally Posted by Jim Campbell

i think the point the store guy was trying to make is the uneven power handling of the 2 cabs....suppose you have a 400 watt head @ 4ohm driving a 1x15 and a 4x10 both @ 8 ohms.....while the 1x15 may be close to it's saturation point at the 200 watts it receives,the 4x10 will be hardly working

Correct...............


And more to the point - the OP is questioning about running a 2X10 with a cab that contains BOTH a 4X10 and a 1X15.

There is just no way that little 2X10 is going to keep up with a big cab like that - not even if the big cab were running at 4 ohms, and the 2X10 was running at 8 ohms.

[AwkwardLoudness]

The 2x10 cab would be pushed a lot harder than the 4x10+1x15 cab assuming the cabs have equal impedance. You wouldn't be able push the 4x10+1x15 cab with ample power without farting out the 2x10 cab.

There are many debates in this forum about phase issues when mixing speaker types and sizes, but it sometimes can work well. The 15" and 10" speakers in the Mesa 4x10+1x15 are probably made to work well together. Phase issues would not be the primary concern when mixing the 2x10 and 4x10+1x15 cabs.

Originally Posted by Rockmusician

If you are running two 8 ohm cabinets you are actually running at 4 ohms. Two 4 ohm cabinets run at 2 ohms. However, if you run a 4 ohm and a 2 ohm cabinet together you are running at 2.6 ohms.

A 2Ω cab and a 4Ω cab in parallel would be 1.33Ω

2.67Ω would be the net result of a 8Ω cab and a 4Ω cab in parallel.

[Jim Campbell]

Originally Posted by AwkwardLoudness

The 2x10 cab would be pushed a lot harder than the 4x10+1x15 cab assuming the cabs have equal impedance. You wouldn't be able push the 4x10+1x15 cab with ample power without farting out the 2x10 cab.

There are many debates in this forum about phase issues when mixing speaker types and sizes, but it sometimes can work well. The 15" and 10" speakers in the Mesa 4x10+1x15 are probably made to work well together. Phase issues would not be the primary concern when mixing the 2x10 and 4x10+1x15 cabs.


A 2Ω cab and a 4Ω cab in parallel would be 1.33Ω

2.67Ω would be the net result of a 8Ω cab and a 4Ω cab in parallel.

phase has to do with speakers traveling in the same direction on a given note....if one speaker is moving out while the other retracts they are said to be out of phase,and will cancel each other out.. this is a different deal than the cab impedance matching problem here

[Jaco who?]

First, a disclaimer, I've never used the powerhouse 1200 thing at all, but I've also never heard of anyone around here that likes them - it's considered a dumb design by everyone who actually know sound design principles, and even user reviews aren't exactly favorable. It does look cool, though.

That said, phase differences or not, the 2x10 would likely be barely audible combined with such a huge cab.

Sounds boring, but two of the same configuration is the safe bet.

[AwkwardLoudness]

Originally Posted by Jim Campbell

phase has to do with speakers traveling in the same direction on a given note....if one speaker is moving out while the other retracts they are said to be out of phase,and will cancel each other out..

I agree that's one instance where phase issues can be a problem, and I never said otherwise.

this is a different deal than the cab impedance matching problem here

Are sure you that the cabs do not have the same impedance? I don't have any Boogie Powerhouse cabs, so I don't know.

[Dudelike89]

Originally Posted by AwkwardLoudness

I agree that's one instance where phase issues can be a problem, and I never said otherwise.


Are sure you that the cabs do not have the same impedance? I don't have any Boogie Powerhouse cabs, so I don't know.

I really have the choice here. I don't own the cabs yet, but they offer both in either 8 or 4 ohms.

And to all of those trying to explain ohms and match cabs for the amp head, I understand all that but thanks for looking out for me!

[Jim Campbell]

Originally Posted by Dudelike89

I really have the choice here. I don't own the cabs yet, but they offer both in either 8 or 4 ohms.

And to all of those trying to explain ohms and match cabs for the amp head, I understand all that but thanks for looking out for me!

what about a ph 6x10 or ph 4x12.....not too many rooms either of those won't fill,and you only have to buy 1 cab

[fourfinger]

My opinion:

The salesman gave you good advice.

If you pair such a big cabinet with a 2x10, the big one will be under-utilized at any volume that doesn't cause problems for the little one.

Definitely those two particular cabs were never designed to go together. Despite the seemingly ample speakers in the 410-115, I think you'd probably get more stage volume (and much better tone) from a pair of 2x10s.

[JimmyM]

Originally Posted by Rockmusician

I once had a Guitar Center employee tell me that Gallien Krueger cabinets can run with Ampeg heads because according to him, GK is made in Europe. He obviousily didn't know what he was talking about. Sound like the person you dealt with. Phasing will not be an issue. You have to worry about the impedance you are running. Find out how many ohms each cabinet runs are and how many ohms your head can handle.

no, actually it sounds like this guy actually did know what he was talking about. mixing speaker sizes to run the same frequency ranges can absolutely cause phasing issues...i've heard them many times. there are also designs that don't have as much phasing as others when you mix them, and some don't have any phasing issues that are noticeable at all, but it's very much a crapshoot.

[billfitzmaurice]

Originally Posted by Jim Campbell

phase has to do with speakers traveling in the same direction on a given note...

That's polarity, not phase. There are phase issues with mixing cabs, but as already noted the main problem here is uneven power routing.

[Jim Campbell]

Originally Posted by billfitzmaurice

That's polarity, not phase. There are phase issues with mixing cabs, but as already noted the main problem here is uneven power routing.

i thought that the polarity was a reason for them being out of phase....time for another bill tutorial....

[Dudelike89]

Yeah. In just the past 10 minutes I've started to second guess my want for the powerhouse 1200. And since that is Mesa's most expensive cab, I pretty much have a blank check to buy any cab from Mesa that my heart desires. I'm taking a trip down to Hollywood next weekend to try out some cabs. Can't go wrong with trying the cabs and letting your ear decide. I guess my original thought was to get the powerhouse 1200 to replace my current 4x10 1x15 setup, and just add another 2 10" speakers for kicks. Plus the 2x10 would make for a good practicing cab.

Thanks for backing up what the employee said. He did seem to know a lot about bass equipment and such, but I just wanted to hear all of your thoughts.

[tharv]

Originally Posted by JimmyM

no, actually it sounds like this guy actually did know what he was talking about. mixing speaker sizes to run the same frequency ranges can absolutely cause phasing issues...i've heard them many times. there are also designs that don't have as much phasing as others when you mix them, and some don't have any phasing issues that are noticeable at all, but it's very much a crapshoot.

+1
Solution? Run 2 Bag End 15's :-)

[Jim Campbell]

Originally Posted by Dudelike89

Yeah. In just the past 10 minutes I've started to second guess my want for the powerhouse 1200. And since that is Mesa's most expensive cab, I pretty much have a blank check to buy any cab from Mesa that my heart desires. I'm taking a trip down to Hollywood next weekend to try out some cabs. Can't go wrong with trying the cabs and letting your ear decide. I guess my original thought was to get the powerhouse 1200 to replace my current 4x10 1x15 setup, and just add another 2 10" speakers for kicks. Plus the 2x10 would make for a good practicing cab.

Thanks for backing up what the employee said. He did seem to know a lot about bass equipment and such, but I just wanted to hear all of your thoughts.

it's heavy and pricey but an 8 x10 might be the way to zen

[billfitzmaurice]

Originally Posted by Jim Campbell

i thought that the polarity was a reason for them being out of phase....time for another bill tutorial....

Two cabs out of polarity are 180 degrees out of phase. But they can be out of phase at any degree of phase, and those degrees of phase can be different at every frequency.