Reality Check - Amp price, performance, tone, volume, size, weight, etc.

[Petebass]

Originally Posted by IvanMike

I am so moving to austrailia or turkey..............

Hey it wasn't always this way. It's really only been the last 3 or 4 years that this structure has evolved. There are still crap PA's and operators out there, but they're not the norm any more. And the best part is that is all came from subtle but sustained pressure from us musicians.

In a way a venue owner would be mad not to go along with it. Look at the pros and cons. The perma-hire rate is cheaper than buying a PA regardless of wether or not they buy it outright or fianance it. Cost of repairs is $NIL because maintainance is part of the hire agreement. And if the system proves to be unsuitable, ring the production comapny and organise a PA that IS suitable.

And if a bigger production comapany won't go for the idea, make a proposal to a good independant sound operator who's sick of hauling their equipment around.

Cons...........There are no cons!

[oldfclefer]

Great stuff. Most useful info.
I set a budget and a time frame for buying my rig and talked it over with my significant other before I made a move. I wanted a rig that I could take anywhere and use under any circumstances. After weeks of research and trial and error, I bought a rig that would do what I wanted it to do. I got a good deal on some new SWR 15" Workman cabs, a new Ampeg B2r (both of which were closeouts) and was fortunate to find a used Alembic F1X preamp. Because I can hear myself at all times now, I'm becoming a better player. I used my olds as trades, and always bought on the stipulation if the stuff proved not to be gig-worthy, I could exchange it.
Love my rig. Sounds great.

[seanm]

While not a gig, one of the jams I play at weekly has a 16 to 24 channel pro mixer (can't remember the exact number), a Crest 240W per channel power amp, two full range speakers and a 2x15" woofer. The guitarists come with guitar and cord, plug in and go. There are 3 mics, so vocalists don't even have to bring a mic.

But the system can't handle bass, so I have to bring almost a full rig. There is an old 2x12" (they look like 15" to me) bass cab that I plug into. When I tried to use it by itself it sounded great. But after an hour (the jams run about 4-5 hours), the speakers where putting out a lot of heat! So I always use it with another cab.

[angelopb]

I remember sitting for a standardized test in '93. They had these long reading passages without titles, followed by about 6 or 7 questions. The passage in the thread would be a good one for the LSAT. I must confess that I would miss this one.

1.) Which of the following most closely expresses the author's main point?

a.) That in order to be a truly competent bass player, one most spend small fortunes to have both an acceptable tone and sufficient volume.

b.) I have a huge rig and am prepared for any venue, whether I have full PA support or not, and you should aspire to be like me, when you have the means to do so.

c.) One should have a large bass rig, regardless of the size of the venues they typically play.

d.) That lowering stage volume and associated gear in favor of high quality PA support is merely a fad, and we should keep our refrigerator-sized rigs.

e.) None of the above.




I am just kidding. I read all of IvanMikes threads and b/t he an Tombolus, I know so much more know than I ever thought possible. This info can save us $$ by not buying the wrong gear.

[IvanMike]

Originally Posted by angelopb

e.) None of the above.

too funny.

actually my main points are as follows;

1 - Bass amps aren't cheap. Get over it.

2 - Bass amps that sound really good tend to cost more than those that sound "OK".

3 - If you need to be loud, it's going to cost you more money, and you're going to have to carry more stuff than if you don't have to be loud.

3 - Owning expensive gear isnt going to make you any better of a player.

4 - You shouldn't go into hock buying stuff you cant afford, but you should realize and accept the limitations of the stuff you can afford.

5 - No one owes you anything. Get over it.

[Jeff Martinez]

Luckily, in my area, every club I have played has an adaquate PA for bass. The goth band I'm in doesn't ever take their own amps to gigs. We all go DI through PODs and have had great experiences with sound. (it helps that there is no live drummer, just sampled drum tracks and keys).

In my other band, I always take my amp & cab, although most of the time, it ends up benefitting the band more than the audience. It allows the wedges to be filled with vocals and drums.

Ironically enough, this weekend, my goth band opened for a national touring band at a Fantasy (ie.renfaire, sca) Arts festival, and they did not bring any bass amplification. the PA was set up to handle DI bass, but they insisted on using stage amplification. Luckily my practice studio was only 5 minutes away. I was amazed that they had not clarified their needs in advance or had the foresight to bring their own equipment.

[IvanMike]

jeez, i think it's funny that out of all the possibly cotroversial points i made, it was the bringing a large rig and PA stuff was the most rousing.

I thought it would have been the $$$ thing that ticked people off.

[Petebass]

Originally Posted by IvanMike

jeez, i think it's funny that out of all the possibly cotroversial points i made, it was the bringing a large rig and PA stuff was the most rousing.

I thought it would have been the $$$ thing that ticked people off.

I'm sick of whinging about money. It doesn't do any good!

[LiquidMidnight]

Originally Posted by IvanMike

very true. what i've found is that good stuff can make you want to play more, be more pleasant to play, and like you said, quality systems will allow you to hear what you really sound like (zits and all).

Very true. I find that higher end gear is more responsive to what the player puts into it (the chain of musician/instrument is often confused by a lot of people, especially the inexperienced. The bass and rig amplify what is being fed into it. Yes, I'm a big "it's in your hands" type of guy), so it's also going to be more receptive to bad technique. I've always said the best litmus test to see if a player has his/her playing in order is to hand them a Rickenbacker. For some reason, Ric's have a way of truly showing whether one has good or bad technique.

[c-ba55]

Originally Posted by LiquidMidnight

I've always said the best litmus test to see if a player has his/her playing in order is to hand them a Rickenbacker. For some reason, Ric's have a way of truly showing whether one has good or bad technique.

I found that with Tobias. I've played several that were absolutely characterless.

[pickles]

Originally Posted by LiquidMidnight

Very true. I find that higher end gear is more responsive to what the player puts into it (the chain of musician/instrument is often confused by a lot of people, especially the inexperienced. The bass and rig amplify what is being fed into it. Yes, I'm a big "it's in your hands" type of guy), so it's also going to be more receptive to bad technique. I've always said the best litmus test to see if a player has his/her playing in order is to hand them a Rickenbacker. For some reason, Ric's have a way of truly showing whether one has good or bad technique.

The best gear is the stuff that "dissapears" when you play.

[SteveC]

I believe almost everyone plays with a stage volume that is excessive.

[protoz]

Originally Posted by LiquidMidnight

I've always said the best litmus test to see if a player has his/her playing in order is to hand them a Rickenbacker. For some reason, Ric's have a way of truly showing whether one has good or bad technique.

A good tube amp also shows just how good you are as well. I never knew about some of my tendencies with my lower end amp until I plugged in my Sunn Sorado when I got it and just though of how horrible I actually sounded from what I was used to hearing with my Hartke. Sunn amps tend to be brutally honest.

All that did was drove me to improve even more (and collect more Sunn amps) because tube amps are more musical I have heard. Now if I could only get my Sorado tone into a larger amp I would be set

[tplyons]

Originally Posted by IvanMike

1st off, ours is an expensive hobby any way you slice it. Basses and amps cost a lot of money, good gear costs a whole lot of money, and really great stuff costs tons of money. But how much is a lot? Remember, when it comes to musical intruments, electric basses and their amps are pretty cheap. Go price out some beginner, mid level, and professional double basses, saxophones, oboes, pianos, etc, and get back to me with how expensive our stuff is.

Well AIN'T that the truth. As a saxophonist (alto, tenor, soprano AND bari) and double bassist as well as a slab player, I'm knee deep in bills. I'm eighteen and have over $15,000 invested in my musical instruments. That's frickin' love.

[Mosher]

(like attempting to get a 25 watt 1x10" combo to cut it in a medium volume rock band on its own)

Yeah.

I can back that statement up.

(Blast my high school income levels!)

But yeah, nice thread, Mikey. Really hit home.

[KeithPas]

While its true that high end gear is going to generally have a more transparant sound than stuff that is less expensive I do not believe it makes a bit of difference at the run of the mill club gig.
Who is to say that the sound of a $2000.00 boutique rig is what everyone wants and who is to say that the $2000.00 really sounds better than the $1000.00 rig? It is completely subjective.

[Fuzzbass]

Originally Posted by IvanMike

jeez, i think it's funny that out of all the possibly cotroversial points i made, it was the bringing a large rig and PA stuff was the most rousing.

I thought it would have been the $$$ thing that ticked people off.

LOL. OK, I'll bite. I disagree the blanket statement that "you get what you pay for"! Some people wouldn't trade their MIM Fender or MIK Lakland for a boutique version of the same. That goes for amps, too (couldn't think of a good example).

Ok here's one example (of many possible): often times, a less expensive rig will have a colored sound. But if the player likes that color, then it would be silly to pay mucho more dollars for a boutique rig!

[KeithPas]

Bingo

[lo-freq]

Originally Posted by KeithPas

While its true that high end gear is going to generally have a more transparant sound than stuff that is less expensive I do not believe it makes a bit of difference at the run of the mill club gig.
Who is to say that the sound of a $2000.00 boutique rig is what everyone wants and who is to say that the $2000.00 really sounds better than the $1000.00 rig? It is completely subjective.

I totally agree with your last sentence.
Who likes what & why? ...very subjective.

As for your first statement, I spent a lot of time on TB researching just in case I could work out a way to get just an 'upper middle of the road' kind of system that worked for me.
Then I went and listened to as much as I could.
I think I was very lucky in that what I ended up with is not what would be my ideal system just to listen to in my office at home, but in a live band setting, it just sounds wonderful to me.
Since I don't do solo live performances, for me, the live band setting is where the rubber meets the road, as they say.

My main two objectives with a bass system is to be able to hear myself on stage as well as possible and secondly that the tone I hear would help to put me and my playing in 'the Groove Zone'.
That's when my A$$ starts shaking (and others' usually follow).

[Dell]

Originally Posted by Fuzzbass

LOL. OK, I'll bite. I disagree the blanket statement that "you get what you pay for"! Some people wouldn't trade their MIM Fender or MIK Lakland for a boutique version of the same. That goes for amps, too (couldn't think of a good example).

Ok here's one example (of many possible): often times, a less expensive rig will have a colored sound. But if the player likes that color, then it would be silly to pay mucho more dollars for a boutique rig!

I love my MIM Jazz It's the best MIM I've ever played and beats a couple of US (not all) that Ive played too.
I guess you do get what you pay for, but there is a line where you are no longer looking at wether it going to break after 5 months, but wether it does what YOU want it to do. Not only that, but I'm sure some companys keep prices high to remain desirable, not becuase they actualy cost that much to produce. I know there are plenty of people who will buy stuff becuase its in the price range of "pro gear", not wether its actualy any good or not.