Really confused on what amp to get...

[MatrixClaw]

I recently went to Guitar Center to try out all the bass amps they had there, and I was really surprised by what I liked and didn't like. Unfortunately, they didn't have the bass I own (Ibanez SR500), but I was also partly shopping for a new bass as well. I really wanted to fall in love with the Music Man Stingray, but I just couldn't get into it at all, I ended up really liking an MIA Jazz Bass, which was quite surprising, as I mostly play metal. Anyway, I ended up plugging into a few different setups:

Ampeg seems to be pretty much the "industry standard" and out of the SVT-4 Pro, SVT-CL and SVT-3 Pro, I wasn't impressed at all - Hell, I wasn't even impressed by their monolith 8x10 cabs or the smaller 4x10 either... They were balanced, I suppose, but I didn't hear anything "special" about them, boring and sterile IMO. The tone just wasn't anything to write home about; especially on the CL... I was expecting to be able to get some cool gritty sounds from the tubes being overdriven, but they just weren't in there for me.

Next, I tried the GK stuff - A 1001RB-II and a 700RB-II were all they had. While I liked these amps a tad better than the Ampegs, they didn't really impress me either, though their 4x10 and 8x10 cab sounded a bit more lively and punchy to me.

Next was Mark Bass. These ones I actually quite liked. The Little Marks (800 and Mark III) were all they had in the higher range, but they were clean and had a huge, rich lowend. However, the lowend was a bit on the muddy side for my taste and kind of took over the rest of the tone on a lot of settings. I really would've liked to've tried some of the more expensive models, because if a $600 amp beat out a $1600 Ampeg for me, I could only imagine what their amps in the $1000+ price range could do. I also like the fact that their amps are super tiny and light (especially compared to those Ampegs) and their 2x10 cabs sounded quite nice!

Lastly, I decided to plug into a Mesa M6 Carbine. WOW! What an amp. This thing was able to nail nearly all the tones I was going for that day and could easily dial in some nice grit on it, which is a huge plus, since I wouldn't need to use a BDDI. The lowend was GIGANTIC on this thing, but also super defined and higher notes rung out nicely when mixed with the lower notes. What surprised me even more, is that it was plugged into a Mesa 2x12 cab, which was TINY and sounded HUGEEEE! I've always been told that 10s are the way to go for metal, and TBH, this is the first time I've even see a bass cab with 12s in it, but I was extremely impressed with it.

I also got a chance to try out an Orange AD200B at my house for the past week. REALLY cool amp, insanely loud for 200w tube, and can be spanky clean or as gritty as you want, totally bitchin! However, I can't afford to pay $2600 for a bass amp :P

I really would've liked to try some SWR stuff, but the Guitar Center I went to doesn't carry them, and the one nearby that does, doesn't carry Mesa.



Now - Hopefully you've made it through that huge read... I sincerely apologize for all that, but I thought it was necessary to give a bit of background info on what kind of tones I was digging, and which ones I wasn't. I've read a lot of info about the Mesa Carbine series and it seems to be a real hit or miss with some people and is mostly advised against, in favor of the Big Block. Unfortunately, all they had to try was the M6 (and the M3, which I didn't bother trying), I would've really liked to try the BB

As far as budget goes, I'm hoping to spend less than $1000 USD on the head, and $500 or less on the cab - I will be buying used, so don't get scared by those figures! Obviously, if it's really worth it, I'm willing to stretch my budget.

What else would you guys suggest I take a look at?

Right now, I'm really just leaning toward getting the M6 and a Mesa 2x12, since it seems like I could probably bag that whole rig for ~$1100, or less, but I'd really like to hear your guys opinions on the matter and what all you'd suggest!


Thanks again guys, and sorry for the epic long post (especially since it's only my second on the forum)!

[JimmyM]

First time I ever heard Ampegs called "sterile." My guess is you didn't turn the gain up enough, but hey, not everyone likes the same things.

For playing metal, you might consider getting a bigger cab. A 212 will put out a little less than a 410. If you can get two of them, that would be a lot better. But speaker size in and of itself means nothing, and the idea that you have to use 10"s for metal is BS. If you like that Mesa head, get it, but if your band is insanely loud like most metal bands, there's a good chance the 212 could get buried amidst the massive guitar stacks. It's all about moving air, and the bigger the cab, the more air you move.

[MatrixClaw]

Originally Posted by JimmyM

First time I ever heard Ampegs called "sterile." My guess is you didn't turn the gain up enough, but hey, not everyone likes the same things.

For playing metal, you might consider getting a bigger cab. A 212 will put out a little less than a 410. If you can get two of them, that would be a lot better. But speaker size in and of itself means nothing, and the idea that you have to use 10"s for metal is BS. If you like that Mesa head, get it, but if your band is insanely loud like most metal bands, there's a good chance the 212 could get buried amidst the massive guitar stacks. It's all about moving air, and the bigger the cab, the more air you move.

I figured I'd catch some flack for that one. I dunno, I just wasn't feeling them for some reason - I've always liked them on recordings, but it just wasn't my thing live. Trust me, the gain was up... I wanted some grit out of those things, but it just wasn't cooperating I thought, maybe something was broken on them (since I've gone in their to check out guitar equipment before and half their amps were nonfunctional because someone came in and stole all the fuses out of them LOL!) but I find it kinda hard to believe that all of them were a bit off for me in the same way.

Guess I'm just not an Ampeg guy. It's a shame... you can pick up the 8x10s around here for SUPER cheap on Craigslist. I really wanted to love those amps, but as much as I tried, I just couldn't get anything I really loved out of them.


As far as the cab goes - I actually play guitar and drums more often, though I find myself seeing a lot of bands recently who need bassists, and I figure, maybe with a decent rig and some practice, I might be able to find a good band (since nothing's happening with the guitar and drums ). I own 3 high end guitar stacks and have actually sold one to make room for some bass gear - My music room could accompany a full band... minus the bass, unless you plug into the PA.

I'm well aware that more speakers = more air moved, however - Shouldn't the size of the speaker also be taken into consideration? Surely, a 10" speaker when compared to a 12" speaker can't move as much air, and thus, is perceived as lower volume to the human ear? I have no doubt that a 4x10 will spread the volume more than a 2x12, but I'm not sure it'd be quite that drastic of a difference, not to mention, it won't have as much lowend, due to the smaller design of the speakers? Does that philosophy not apply to bass? I know in the guitar spectrum, while a 4x12 will certainly spread the volume out better than a 2x12, the perceived volume difference between my Soldano 2x12 and Emperor 4x12 isn't anything someone is going to be noticing at any kind of reasonable volume.

The 2x12 I had the Mesa plugged into didn't seem have any problem shaking the walls so much that an employee had to come over and tell me to turn it down, because it seemed like the guitars could come crashing down off the walls at any minute, with the way they were rattling

[Marton]

An Ampeg SVT isn't made to impress you at the music store, it's made to impress you in a band setting. Same thing for the 810.

[MatrixClaw]

Originally Posted by Marton

An Ampeg SVT isn't made to impress you at the music store, it's made to impress you in a band setting. Same thing for the 810.

Well, unfortunately, a lot the time I'll be playing probably won't be in a band setting I'd like something that sounds awesome by itself and in a band setting - Recorded would be a plus as well, but I usually just DI for that anyway.

Now that you mention it though, I forgot I've jammed a few times at a practice space here that stocks an SVT-3 Pro and SVT 6x10 cab in the practice room we'd use and I didn't like it live there, played by me, or our bassist, either

[KsPiNeSh]

Originally Posted by MatrixClaw

The 2x12 I had the Mesa plugged into didn't seem have any problem shaking the walls so much that an employee had to come over and tell me to turn it down, because it seemed like the guitars could come crashing down off the walls at any minute, with the way they were rattling

Yeah, stores are deceiving like that. Small spaces, little direct competition for volume... the reality is that 2 speakers will only move so much air, period. That said, since the Carbine heads are 2-ohm stable you could always snag another 212 and double-up if you do find yourself lacking volume in a band setting.

[JimmyM]

Originally Posted by MatrixClaw

I'm well aware that more speakers = more air moved, however - Shouldn't the size of the speaker also be taken into consideration? Surely, a 10" speaker when compared to a 12" speaker can't move as much air, and thus, is perceived as lower volume to the human ear?

That is all highly dependent on the speaker's design. Some 10"s can move as much air as a 12" or more. Speaker surface area + cone movement is what determines how much air it moves. But generally, with ceramic speakers used in bass cabs, a 12" will move more air than a 10", yes.

I have no doubt that a 4x10 will spread the volume more than a 2x12, but I'm not sure it'd be quite that drastic of a difference, not to mention, it won't have as much lowend, due to the smaller design of the speakers?

All things being equal with the speaker design, the 212 will only be a little quieter than a 410, but the amount of low end a cab pushes is not dependent on speaker size at all. For example, one of the very lowest low producing cabs on the market is the Ampeg SVT 410HLF. 410's. Goes as low or lower than almost every other cab on the market, including those with 15"s. The idea that bigger speakers are needed to push lows loudly is called "engineering by looks."

Does that philosophy not apply to bass? I know in the guitar spectrum, while a 4x12 will certainly spread the volume out better than a 2x12, the perceived volume difference between my Soldano 2x12 and Emperor 4x12 isn't anything someone is going to be noticing at any kind of reasonable volume.

A lot of that is dependent on the design of the cab and the speakers. But if you have two cabs, both are designed similarly and use the same speakers, except one is a 212 and he other a 412, you will get +6db out of the 412 in comparison, which isn't twice as loud but it's a lot louder and very noticeable. But the reason it may not seem so significant to you is that you're already too doggone loud with that guitar as it is

The 2x12 I had the Mesa plugged into didn't seem have any problem shaking the walls so much that an employee had to come over and tell me to turn it down, because it seemed like the guitars could come crashing down off the walls at any minute, with the way they were rattling

Well if you think it's enough, then snag it. But if you're playing with metal guitarists who take 100w tube amps and crank them hard into 412's, there's a good chance you could struggle. Of course, turning down and letting the PA do the heavy lifting is the way to go, but if everyone plays really loud, you're better off having too much cab than not enough.

[username1]

Originally Posted by Marton

An Ampeg SVT isn't made to impress you at the music store, it's made to impress you in a band setting. Same thing for the 810.

+100

[MK1]

I would flip flop your budget if I were in your shoes. I've played great heads into OK cabs and it's sounded just OK, but I've played OK heads into great cabs and it sounded great. I also wouldn't worry about matching brands, some times mixing and matching can yield quite a bit of magic. I'm not a big fan of Ampeg heads, but I love the way an 800rb sounds running through a fridge.
If you really liked the M6 then Ampeg just might not be your sound. Look for a used M6 in the classifieds here and give it a try with a fridge you just may be surprised. A 412 may also be another good option.

[AwkwardLoudness]

I think you'd like some of those amps better if you played them through good cabs that are not typically available at Guitar Center: vintage Ampeg 8x10, Bergantino NV412 / NV610 / AE212, fEarful 15/6, Epifani UL610, etc.

If the Mesa M6 + 2x12 suits your needs, then go for it. You might want something taller like a pair of 2x12s stacked vertically.

Originally Posted by MK1

I would flip flop your budget if I were in your shoes.

Yes, I agree. Getting a good cab is of paramount importance. The amp is important too, but the bass cab provides the voice of the tone.

Originally Posted by MatrixClaw

I also got a chance to try out an Orange AD200B at my house for the past week. REALLY cool amp, insanely loud for 200w tube, and can be spanky clean or as gritty as you want, totally bitchin! However, I can't afford to pay $2600 for a bass amp :P

A new AD200B is not worth it due to reliability reasons. They sound good though.

[SC Bassboy]

OK, you’ve asked for some advice so I’m going to throw this out there. I’ve been playing bass in band settings for about 15 years now, running through every cab configuration imaginable (including my stereo before I even owned a proper amplifier). Hands down, no question about it, the 8X10 cabinet is my favorite, forever and ever, Amen. Specifically, the SWR Megoliath. The Ampeg “Fridge” is a respectable cabinet but for some reason I’ve never been able to get one to cut through a mix very well. As for an amplifier, GK makes one Hell of a product.

[Kimsallabim]

I must say that the aguilar db 750 is an incredible amp. i don't know if the price have dropped since the arrival of the db 751 . but still , here in norway the db 751 is less expensive than the db 750. i use it with an us made ampeg 810 cab. i played with it at a medium sized venue ( medium in norwegian scale) 300 people or more. and the soundman showed me that he juste muted the bass on the PA and you could hear the bass clear and loud. it is a straight forward amp, great sound. bit heavy. and im sorry i don't know what prices are in your country. but it's definatly worth to check out.

[MatrixClaw]

Originally Posted by KsPiNeSh

Yeah, stores are deceiving like that. Small spaces, little direct competition for volume... the reality is that 2 speakers will only move so much air, period. That said, since the Carbine heads are 2-ohm stable you could always snag another 212 and double-up if you do find yourself lacking volume in a band setting.

Well, the room the amp was in was actually a very big space, bigger than most venues I've been in around here - The fact that it was facing away from the walls and into the center of the room was pretty impressive with the amount of volume and bass the little 2x12 was pumping out. Good point on adding a second cab though if the 2x12 isn't loud enough - I guess I could go for a 2x10 to mix with it as well?

Originally Posted by JimmyM

All things being equal with the speaker design, the 212 will only be a little quieter than a 410, but the amount of low end a cab pushes is not dependent on speaker size at all. For example, one of the very lowest low producing cabs on the market is the Ampeg SVT 410HLF. 410's. Goes as low or lower than almost every other cab on the market, including those with 15"s. The idea that bigger speakers are needed to push lows loudly is called "engineering by looks."

It wasn't really that the 4x10s didn't have enough bass for me, it was more that they didn't pack as much punch as the little 12" speakers did IMO. The 12s just sounded richer and fuller to my ears - the 10s had no problem producing a ton of lows, but I felt like they were lacking something for me. I DID like the Mesa 2x10 they had there though, not as much as the 2x12, but more than the Ampeg/GK 4x10s I'd tried - And like I said, the Mark Bass 10" cabs were really cool as well.

Originally Posted by JimmyM

Well if you think it's enough, then snag it. But if you're playing with metal guitarists who take 100w tube amps and crank them hard into 412's, there's a good chance you could struggle. Of course, turning down and letting the PA do the heavy lifting is the way to go, but if everyone plays really loud, you're better off having too much cab than not enough.

Good point. Usually when I jam with people now on bass, I actually use my PA. My friend left his 4x10 bass stack here a few years ago and comes over and jams every once and while, but it's a cheap Behringer and is just all lowend. Sounds alright if all you want to hear is bass, but it's horrible for anything else. The head is 450w through a 1200w 4x10 and my 250w PA with 2 1x12 cabs cuts much better than it does, and sounds a bajillion times better

I really don't think I'd have much of an issue cutting through a mix with the 600w Mesa though - I suppose I could get the M9 for the extra wattage, though I know it's just going to add more headroom than anything, the difference in volume shouldn't be that huge between the two.

I'm mainly just looking for recommendations at a similar price point that may end up giving me better results. I'm definitely not apposed to a 4x10 cab, or something bigger, as long as the sound quality can match or surpass the 2x12 Mesa for what I'm going for. Like I said though, if it's really worth it, I'm willing to expand my budget, I could afford to buy that Orange head that I mentioned, I just don't really want to spend that much money

Originally Posted by MK1

I would flip flop your budget if I were in your shoes. I've played great heads into OK cabs and it's sounded just OK, but I've played OK heads into great cabs and it sounded great. I also wouldn't worry about matching brands, some times mixing and matching can yield quite a bit of magic. I'm not a big fan of Ampeg heads, but I love the way an 800rb sounds running through a fridge.
If you really liked the M6 then Ampeg just might not be your sound. Look for a used M6 in the classifieds here and give it a try with a fridge you just may be surprised. A 412 may also be another good option.

Oh, definitely - Matching cabs and heads is of little importance to me, it just so happened that the combo I liked at GC when I tried it was a matching stack. I don't own a single matching stack when it comes to guitar (Diezel Herbert into an Emperor 4x12, Peavey 5150 into a Soldano 2x12, Krank Rev+ into a Marshall/Splawn franken 4x12), so I could really care less.

My only hesitation about getting the M6 is that most people seem to say that the Big Block is a much better sounding head, but I also hear that it's quite different. If it can do similar sounds to the M6, while being even more versatile, I'm all for buying one sight-unseen, since they seem to have a better reputation, and if I didn't like it, I'm sure I could sell it quicker. They also seem to sell at around the same price range on the used market, so it's not like I'd have to spend much more (if any) for something that maybe be superior. What do you guys think?

[SVE]

I've heard many people say that the crown jewel of Mesa Bass amps is the 400+. There around here used on the classifieds for like $700-$800. I've heard them and they sound really awesome, especially considering their cost compared to other really nice tube amps.

I have an AD200B and it's still hands down the best sounding amp I've played.

[steve.roark]

I personally hate the heaviness of the ampeg 810's and older head weights, and I agree they don't sound that good. However, put a good bass with it on stage and their is nothing like it. I have tried and tried to quit playing mine.
However, you must be the judge of what you like and the Mesa Boogie is a perfect fit for metal prominent playing with a natural scooped tone. If I had room for two rigs and the budget I would A/B to a Mesa for more modern tones.

[MatrixClaw]

Originally Posted by SVE

I've heard many people say that the crown jewel of Mesa Bass amps is the 400+. There around here used on the classifieds for like $700-$800. I've heard them and they sound really awesome, especially considering their cost compared to other really nice tube amps.

I have an AD200B and it's still hands down the best sounding amp I've played.

Ah, that's another good one. I keep forgetting about the 400+, I guess was just so turned off by the SVT-CL that I hadn't thought much about tube bass amps lately - The AD200B I had was pretty awesome though, so I guess I shouldn't cross the Mesa off my list yet. I've seen them at pretty reasonable prices, so I guess I should add that one to the list - My only gripe with it, is that when the tubes die, it's going to be insanely expensive to replace all them things, that and, since they're not made anymore, there's pretty much no chance that I'll be able to try one out before I buy it, unless one happens to pop up on CL for a decent price

The M9 also appeals to me a bit more than the M6, since it has a Compressor and foot-switchable GEQ (though the M6 does have the switchable mid voicings). Unfortunately, I've been trying to find one of these close for a while to check out, but it doesn't seem like anyone stocks them

[SVE]

Tubes can last for many many years.... Some people sell them re-tubed, or with tubes to re-tube them with. It really is an amazing amp and I advise you look into it.

[JimmyM]

Originally Posted by steve.roark

I personally hate the heaviness of the ampeg 810's and older head weights, and I agree they don't sound that good. However, put a good bass with it on stage and their is nothing like it. I have tried and tried to quit playing mine.

HAHAHA! If that was shorter, I'd make it my sig! It's a girlfriend who does you dirty yet you keep coming back to her...LOL!

[fourfinger]

My advice:

Mesa rocks. However, one thing about that smaller cab that rocked the room you might want to watch out for: if it is a 4-ohm cab, that would turn your rig into a one-trick pony. Pass, or order an 8-ohm version if available.

You will be wanting eight 10' speakers sooner or later , so get either a 4-ohm 8x10 or an 8-ohm smaller cab so you can add an extension cab and stack 'em up like an 8 x 10.
Just don't get a 4-ohm little cab unless you're absolutely certain you don't want to stack, ever. Not that some amps can't run at 2 ohms. You're most flexible with two 8-ohm cabs.

[Aquila0507]

Since you seem to shop at GC, try the acoustic amps. They are the cheapest ones there and sound pretty good. They are probably hit or miss with most people as well. They aren't really all that eq friendly though so it's probably hit or miss for you too.