Recommend a Vintage 15" Driver

[fu22ba55]

I just aquired an early 70's Sunn 215S cab.



Since the existing drivers are mismatched, I plan on loading this with two matching drivers, and I want to go "vintage." Either actual re-coned vintage, or something new, like the Jensen C15K.

I'm thinking about things like the JBL K140, EV 15L, Jensen C15K.

(I believe K140s were original equipment on this box, but I'm not 100% sure.)

I plan on pushing this cab with 200 tube watts, and I like to get into Geezer Butler/ Grand Funk territory.

I love the sound of my brand new Jensen C15N in my 70's B15N.

I love the sound of my EV15Bs (in TL-606s)

I hate the sound of Eminence 3015s, so please don't recommend them.

Dimensions of the box are 24 W x 15 D x 40 T. (but that's probably not the actual size inside the box due to the large port on the side.) It's one big chamber inside, not two 1 x 15 chambers.

If you were going to do up this cab to cop a nice vintage sound @ 200 Watts, what drivers would you use?

I have other (newer) cabs I can abuse... I'm more concerned with vintage sound than I am with durability.

[GlennW]

JBL D/K140; K would last a little longer

Altec 418B or 421

I don't think Jensen made a C15K back then; a couple of P15L (Leslie) speakers would probably be your safest bet with Jensen. I doubt if the old C15N's would hold up, although many old bass cabs used them.

I'd go with Altecs or E-140s if I had to have JBL's at the volume you're talking about.

[KramerBassFan]

Pretty sure that originally came with SUNN branded CTS speakers.

[rpsands]

If your tube head is stable to 2 ohms, go with two Basslite C2515s. They're going to be incredibly vintage sounding in a box that size -- huge upper bass bump and huge midrange. Will sound nothing at all like a 3015, so don't worry about that -- the Basslite's much different parameters make it generate a large upper bass peak when stuffed into smaller enclosures like this one, which the 3015 does not ever achieve until down around 2 cubic feet.

[rbbrchkn]

Does it sound good the way it's loaded now? If so, I'd leave it the way it is.

The top driver looks a lot like an OEM 15L or B, which could be a 100w, 200w, or 400w speaker depending on the year and what cone is on there. The 15L, B, and I'm sure many of those on the recone list all share the same basket, with different cones for different purposes. I think the only EV 15 recone kits widely available these days are the 400w "L", which are the best anyway. If the mystery speaker blows up down the road you could have it reconed with that kit.

Even a "400w" 15L Proline will only take about 85w of real bass before it starts to break up, and most of the old JBLs Ds and Altecs are in that ballpark. I have a Sunn 215 BH with an EVM 15L and Altec 421A that sounds great, but I can't even push my 100w V4 into overdrive before both speakers are screamin' for mercy.

Given that a tube head in good repair will put out 2.5x its rated power when you overdrive it, you'll be looking at JBL K140s or just more speakers to be able to run safely at that power. I'd run the numbers on the interior box volume to see if JBLs would even work in that small of a box before going down that road.

[fu22ba55]

Originally Posted by rbbrchkn

Does it sound good the way it's loaded now? If so, I'd leave it the way it is.

It sounds kind of confused right now. It's wired in parallel, and in phase (I checked), and both drivers are working properly, but the 15DLX seems to be working much more than the mystery EV... so it sounds a bit confused. There seem to be big gaps in frequency response... then sudden wolf notes.

Originally Posted by rbbrchkn

I'd run the numbers on the interior box volume to see if JBLs would even work in that small of a box before going down that road.

I imagine I'll need to do this eventually (measure the interior box volume.)

@GlennW those Altecs do look interesting, and seem to be abundant and (relatively) affordable on the eBay

@KramerBass I've heard the Sunn CTS speakers were a baseline (cheap) driver, but JBLs were offered as upgrades? Is that just urban myth?

Originally Posted by rpsands

If your tube head is stable to 2 ohms, go with two Basslite C2515s. They're going to be incredibly vintage sounding in a box that size -- huge upper bass bump and huge midrange.

This sounds appealing to me... I am temped to try this option as well... I've got 2 Ohm taps a plenty. If I load with these, then I could even use a 300W SVT at two ohms... (or would I just destroy the Basslites at 150W each?)

[GlennW]

I'd steer clear of Jensens for loud bass, unless you have 6 or 8.

I tried some Fender branded CTS 15s, similar to the Ampeg CTS's with the 5 1/2" - 6" square magnet, and to be honest, they didn't sound that great compared to JBL's and Altecs.

[KramerBassFan]

Originally Posted by fu22ba55

@KramerBass I've heard the Sunn CTS speakers were a baseline (cheap) driver, but JBLs were offered as upgrades? Is that just urban myth?

I'm not entirely sure. This was not too popular an era of SUNN, but i do know lots of SUNN cabinets of the era had EV speakers. Especially the big 8028 monstrosities. JBL's... i don't know.

Not to mention, this was well before my time.

[fu22ba55]

Just found this thread.

Sunn 215b cab needs speakers...

This cab is nearly identical, so interior box volume is the same:

Originally Posted by knw

I got the cab today and I measured it.

The actual internal dimensions of the cab are:

38" high
12" deep
22" wide

38 x 12 x 22 = 10032 volume.

The port size is:

38” high
10” deep
6” wide

38 x 10 x 6 = 2280/2 (since it’s a triangle shaped port) = 1140 volume.

So the cab’s internal volume - the port volume = 8892 volume

The usual suspects popped up in this thread. 15Ls, K140s, and Mr. Fitzmaurice recommended Deltalite II 2515's...

Seems that everything old is new again.

[rpsands]

Basslites are fine with an SVT, its unlikely to put out much over 300w if my recollection is correct, and the basslites are rated at 150w continuous thermal. It'd probably melt your tubes long before it melted the basslites.

Basslites have about as much excursion available as deltalites, so just about as likely to be killed by an SVT. They'll be even boomier in the upper bass (by 2db ) over deltalites, in that box, which I think is something you'll want.

Maximum SPL is basically identical, but the Basslite's going to have more of a vintagey sound -- more upper bass, different upper mid character.

Also, I know of Sundogue's experiments stuffing them in higher tuned very small enclosures and he wound up happy with the sound. They're a lot cheaper than deltalites too.

[fu22ba55]

Originally Posted by rpsands

Maximum SPL is basically identical, but the Basslite's going to have more of a vintagey sound -- more upper bass, different upper mid character.

Also, I know of Sundogue's experiments stuffing them in higher tuned very small enclosures and he wound up happy with the sound. They're a lot cheaper than deltalites too.

I'm really liking the sound of this. They're cheap enough to burn through a pair and see if I like them.

[D.M.N.]

Originally Posted by KramerBassFan

Pretty sure that originally came with SUNN branded CTS speakers.

I believe this is correct. JBLs were loaded in the higher priced cabs through then end of the 1000s series tube era (1000s, 1200s, 2000s), which ended in like 1972 I believe. After that, I'm not sure if JBLs were even offered as options or not, but I'm pretty sure they were not the standard. This cab most likely came stock with CTS Sunn transducers, unless it had an upgraded set (not sure who the upgrades were at the time, possibly EV?).

[KramerBassFan]

Originally Posted by D.M.N.

I believe this is correct. JBLs were loaded in the higher priced cabs through then end of the 1000s series tube era (1000s, 1200s, 2000s), which ended in like 1972 I believe. After that, I'm not sure if JBLs were even offered as options or not, but I'm pretty sure they were not the standard. This cab most likely came stock with CTS Sunn transducers, unless it had an upgraded set (not sure who the upgrades were at the time, possibly EV?).

Yep, pretty sure thats right.

Like I said, i've seen a Few of the later Hartzell Corp Era Funky PA type cabinets that have EV's, but i don't think i've seen a 2x15 with them. Doesn't mean it doesn't exist, certainly not. But, the 8028 Cabinet, such as this one, has a little EV logo on it.

http://cgi.ebay.com/VINTAGE-SUNN-COL...#ht_1219wt_907

[D.M.N.]

Yeah. Anyways, my recommendation for vintage speakers is K140s. I don't think they can really be beat, just all around great speakers. Or the E140s if you need the power. Either way, that's what I have in my Sunn 2000s cab, and it SMOKES all others (IMHO).

[edbass]

Originally Posted by fu22ba55

I've heard the Sunn CTS speakers were a baseline (cheap) driver, but JBLs were offered as upgrades? Is that just urban myth?

Sort of. I'd say this is pretty accurate;

Originally Posted by D.M.N.

I believe this is correct. JBLs were loaded in the higher priced cabs through then end of the 1000s series tube era (1000s, 1200s, 2000s), which ended in like 1972 I believe. After that, I'm not sure if JBLs were even offered as options or not, but I'm pretty sure they were not the standard. This cab most likely came stock with CTS Sunn transducers, unless it had an upgraded set (not sure who the upgrades were at the time, possibly EV?).

The cab you have is the 215, which replaced the JBL D140 loaded 200S and Sunn Transducer loaded Sorado cabs in ’72.
It was available in three models;
The Sunn Transducer loaded 215S
The Sunn Magna loaded 215M
The Cerwin Vega loaded 215V

D.M.N. is correct, by ’72 the Sunn/JBL marriage was over. 1970 seemed to be a transitional year, when Sunn experimented with many “upgrade” drivers for their premium cabs, offering Sunn, as well as JBL, Vega and EV drivers from the factory. By ’72 they apparently settled on Sunn branded drivers with Vega as the premium upgrade.

There were anomalies as usual. I have a ’72? 215 that came with D140’s in it, but it came from an endorsement deal.
It’s pretty much my “go to” 215 cab, now loaded with EVM15L’s, but overall probably my favorite bass guitar driver is the JBL K140.

[D.M.N.]

Originally Posted by edbass

The cab you have is the 215, which replaced the JBL D140 loaded 200S and Sunn Transducer loaded Sorado cabs in ’72.
It was available in three models;
The Sunn Transducer loaded 215S
The Sunn Magna loaded 215M
The Cerwin Vega loaded 215V
........
By ’72 they apparently settled on Sunn branded drivers with Vega as the premium upgrade.
.

Okay, I thought it was either EV or CV. I remember a guy over at the Sunn forum selling 1x18s with Vega's in them, but I wasn't sure if the Vega's were the later "upgrade" option or not.

[gbarchus]

I don't believe a JBL speaker will fit in the Sunn 215 cabinet. The speakers are front mounted and the cast frame of the JBL is too large. I used to use two JBL D140 loaded Sunn 200S cabinets. The cabinet was designed before Theile-Small parameters and the port was too big. All was OK with a 60 watt RMS Sunn 200S head but with a 300 watt SVT those speakers flapped all over the place.

I tried to put some JBLs in a SUNN 215. I couldn't get them in and settled on EV15Ls.

[edbass]

Originally Posted by gbarchus

I don't believe a JBL speaker will fit in the Sunn 215 cabinet. The speakers are front mounted and the cast frame of the JBL is too large. I used to use two JBL D140 loaded Sunn 200S cabinets. The cabinet was designed before Theile-Small parameters and the port was too big. All was OK with a 60 watt RMS Sunn 200S head but with a 300 watt SVT those speakers flapped all over the place.

I tried to put some JBLs in a SUNN 215. I couldn't get them in and settled on EV15Ls.

JBL's fit in the 215S/M/V cabinets, they just drop right in. As I posted, my sunn 215 cab came with D140F's when I got it originally. In fact, I've had JBL D & K 140's, E140's, EVM's, SRO's, Altec 421's, and Reeves 15" drivers in that cab at one time or another and they all fit, with no grill cloth or other clearance issues. The JBL K/E 145 does have a bigger mounting rim, but I've only used them in a 2000S cab.
The only issues I've had with Sunn cabs is fitting ceramic magnet drivers into a 200S. The port ducting gets in the way of the magnet structure, it's pretty tight in there.



One of the reasons I prefer the K140 over the D140 is that the D's won't handle the power that the K's will. I think the D's were rated at 75 watts or so, they were developed when a 100 watt amp was a monster.
The problem you had with "flapping" wasn't the cabinet design, I think you were just overpowering the poor drivers.

The port on this 2000S cab is even larger than the one on the 200S. It's loaded with K140's and will take that Reeves wide open without farting. If the cab were loaded with the D140's that it came with, the VC's would be bouncing off of the magnets and it would only take a little while to toast them completely.



You can see the Master volume on the far right hand side is at 3 o'clock+, and both preamps are being driven past 1 o'clock. That's cooking pretty freekin' hot, stuff was "snowing" from the drop ceiling at a TB GTG a few years ago which is where that pic was taken by another TB member.
The JBL's didn't flinch, although those particular K's have the original 30+ year old cones and I won't pound on them that hard for very long at a stretch.
They sound too sweet at usable SPL's to sacrifice them in an all out dB test!

[D.M.N.]

Originally Posted by gbarchus

I don't believe a JBL speaker will fit in the Sunn 215 cabinet. The speakers are front mounted and the cast frame of the JBL is too large. I used to use two JBL D140 loaded Sunn 200S cabinets. The cabinet was designed before Theile-Small parameters and the port was too big. All was OK with a 60 watt RMS Sunn 200S head but with a 300 watt SVT those speakers flapped all over the place.

I tried to put some JBLs in a SUNN 215. I couldn't get them in and settled on EV15Ls.

You are aware that you were pushing speakers rated at 75 watts with a 300w amplifier? Of course they'd be flapping about, bits and pieces of the cone were probably flying around too.


Edit: Looks like Edbass beat me to this point.

[gbarchus]

Thanks guys! I must have had a different Sunn ))) cabinet. Has anyone ever looked at the 200S cabinet in light of Theile-Small parameters. I can't help but imagine the port is much too large. I actually put a different baffle with tuned tube ports on my two cabinets. No problems after that for my four 60 watt RMS JBL D140Fs with an Ampeg SVT.

By the way, edbass, that Reeves/Sunn setup sure looks nice. I can imagine the TONE!

Gale