Replacing blown 12" Deltalite I's with ???

[Doug Parent]

Hi Talkbass, I just got a Carvin BRX212 bass cab with blown Eminence Deltalite SERIES ONE drivers. I checked, no recone kits. (doorstops)

Internal dimensions are:
17.25 X 25.5 X 22.5 = 9897.19

9897.19 /1728=5.727 cubic feet?

Is this formula correct for internal volume?

port area is 21.75 X 3.75

This is a large cabinet.

I can get wholesale pricing on Eminence, so cost is not as much a factor as performance. This cabinet unloaded is 62 lbs.

I'm considering Eminence Deltalite 2512 II's because the porting on this cab may already be correct as the original driver is the 2512 series one, and the weight factor.

Also considering:

Delta 12LF
Kappa Pro 12A

side note:

I also have ONE 2512 II driver (Avatar high 6.0 xmax version) available, would it be ill advised to load this driver in the same cabinet with a stock 2512 II (4.9 xmax) ?

[rpsands]

Deltalite II's would be perfectly fine with that many cubic feet if the tuning is in the 35-45hz range.

S2012's would be just fine as well.

3012HO's want a smaller box.

3012LF's and a midrange would be fine but they'd want closer to 45hz tuning.

[Bass_Pounder]

Great cab

I loaded mine with a pair of 3012HO's (back when they were around $120 each).

[Doug Parent]

I also have ONE Avatar Delta-lite 2512 high 6.0 xmax version driver available, would I be ill advised to load this driver in the same cabinet with a stock 2512 II (4.9 xmax) ?

[Doug Parent]

Originally Posted by rpsands

Deltalite II's would be perfectly fine with that many cubic feet if the tuning is in the 35-45hz range.

S2012's would be just fine as well.

3012HO's want a smaller box.

3012LF's and a midrange would be fine but they'd want closer to 45hz tuning.

Delta 12LF ? What about combining two 2512 Neo's that had different x-max ratings?

Thanks!

[billfitzmaurice]

Originally Posted by Doug Parent

What about combining two 2512 Neo's that had different x-max ratings?

The one with the shorter xmax will limit system output.

This cabinet unloaded is 62 lbs.

Ludicrous. I wouldn't bother to reload it.

[will33]

Some specs for the Avatar OEM 12's a guy posted in an old thread of mine. They were measured using I believe the Dayton Woofer tester.

Fs = 31 Hz
Re = 3.95 Ohms
Le = 1.6 mH
Vas = 4.56 Ft3
Cms = 298 um/N
Sd = 551 cm2
Qms = 5.21
Qes = .231
Mms = 87.6 gr
BL = 17.22 Tm


Xmax isn't the only difference. They're far enough off from the stock emi.'s it's the same as putting 2 different drivers in the same box.

Get another Avatar or use a pair of stock spec 2512's, assuming using this box is worth it to you. FWIW, my ear doesn't like the avatars nearly as much as the stock spec drivers. They give up a lot of upper response for that tiny bit extra they give down low. They do have some sort of "definition" in the mids but it sounds like that peaky, 1500hz or so spike you get at the top of an LF woofers response. The stock specs to sound more musical, less "mechanical" for lack of better terms.

If crossing to a mid, the avatars will work fine. If running from woofer to tweeter like your cab does, the stock spec emi. 2512's will do a better job of it.

I can see Bill's point about forgetting about the cab. For me, if the weight didn't push me that way, the diagonal alignment would. Ever since I started doing things the "right way", I rather enjoy hearing myself off to the sides of my rig and frankly do not enjoy it at all if playing an old fashioned system. That's just me, if you don't know what you're missing, that cab will sound just fine. I think there is room in those to put a mid cone where the tweeter is. That would be a worthwhile investment. Look for one that runs 97 - 100db @ 1watt. I'd do that and you could even just get another Avatar driver rather than buy 2 expensive drivers to put in a "wrong way" cab.

[kraigo]

Thanks for that, Will33! I've got a number of woofers where I've got some data, but not as much as I'd like or I'd like confirmation that I have what I think I have. Dayton Woofer Tester may be the ticket! Any competing products I should be looking at instead?

KO

[kraigo]

On topic, I prefer vertically aligned 12's because the cabs are usually one rack width and as such fit through doorways much better than a typical 4x10 form factor does. 62 lbs. unloaded is a bit much and depending on the cost of the woofers vs. the cost of a new cabinet, I do think it's a good idea to look at the economy of keeping the cab.

At the same time, I hate to advocate tossing an otherwise good cabinet. Perhaps get some S2012's for it. They're a bit more than half the cost of 2512's and very good performance. If you look at Eminence's box design PDFs for both speakers, the 2512 has a higher thermal limit, but is displacement limited in the same size box as an S2012 to the same wattage. The S2012 is slightly less sensitive than the 2512 but will give you a bit more low end, I do believe. A very nice speaker at a nice price point.

KO

[will33]

The old thread for reference....

deltalite version I vs. II

Some talk in there from a couple of the more knowledgable here on how those specs affect upper freq. response, sensitivity, etc. if you can glean any useful info that applies to your situation.

[Doug Parent]

Originally Posted by will33

I can see Bill's point about forgetting about the cab. For me, if the weight didn't push me that way, the diagonal alignment would......

......I think there is room in those to put a mid cone where the tweeter is.

Thank you kindly for your response, the cabinet weight is compelling towards the Deltalite II option certainly vs Delta 12LF which is 5-6 lbs more per driver.

Interesting that you mention a mid driver vs. the tweeter because there is certainly room for one.

[rpsands]

If you start getting into serious modding you might want to just sell the cab empty and buy/build a COUGH.

Fearful?

I'd suggest if you're going to reuse this cab just drop S2012's in it and call it a day.

[will33]

Originally Posted by kraigo

Thanks for that, Will33! I've got a number of woofers where I've got some data, but not as much as I'd like or I'd like confirmation that I have what I think I have. Dayton Woofer Tester may be the ticket! Any competing products I should be looking at instead?

KO

Post #7 from rspands in that old thread I linked to has a link to another woofer tester that's supposed to be a littke better. I haven't used either, don't know cost vs. performance, etc.

[Doug Parent]

Originally Posted by kraigo

On topic, I prefer vertically aligned 12's because the cabs are usually one rack width and as such fit through doorways much better than a typical 4x10 form factor does. 62 lbs. unloaded is a bit much and depending on the cost of the woofers vs. the cost of a new cabinet, I do think it's a good idea to look at the economy of keeping the cab.

At the same time, I hate to advocate tossing an otherwise good cabinet. Perhaps get some S2012's for it. They're a bit more than half the cost of 2512's and very good performance. If you look at Eminence's box design PDFs for both speakers, the 2512 has a higher thermal limit, but is displacement limited in the same size box as an S2012 to the same wattage. The S2012 is slightly less sensitive than the 2512 but will give you a bit more low end, I do believe. A very nice speaker at a nice price point.

KO

Appreciate your response, loaded with new 2512's I'd have about $425 into this cabinet when it's all said and done, not bad for a box that could probably stand on it's own in most situations?

[kraigo]

Don't make the mistake of thinking that the S2012 is an also-ran. Translating, it can handle all of the power that a DeltaLite 2512 can in a typical box. It's a little bit less volume and a little bit more low end. Not bad at all at 62% of the cost.

With the S2012's it goes from an OK deal (what's the cost of a new Avatar 2x12?) to a pretty good deal.

KO

[will33]

I'd also say the s2012 basslites are a good choice here, the only real drawback being a 300 watt thermal rating in a 4 ohm cab. Either could stand on it's own in most situations.

FWIW, I run a pair of deltaliteII2512's with an 800rb in my rig. It handles most any indoor small/medium club gig and can cover a large outdoor stage. Anyplace that's bigger than that, we're in the PA. The basslites have similair spl although a little more lowend extension and a little less mid response. The two can handle similair size gigs.

[will33]

Should add that's in a classic rock/funky dancy/party covers band, pretty good, full volume but not super loud. If you're doing metal, may want to up the ante a bit.

[rpsands]

The thermal rating is no issue imho. The chances of you running 300w continuous to those speakers to melt them is improbable at best. Especially with one of the new micro heads or something (say an F1 or a shuttle 6.0).

[will33]

Originally Posted by rpsands

The thermal rating is no issue imho. The chances of you running 300w continuous to those speakers to melt them is improbable at best. Especially with one of the new micro heads or something (say an F1 or a shuttle 6.0).

This is a good point, you'd have to be running a good 1000 watts to get 300 continuous. I just can't predict the power compression effect on the basslites turning them up for extended periods of time. Somebody who gigs them regularly could give better real-world advise there.

[gerryjazzman]

Actually check Speaker Hardware. Leland has about the best prices for an authorized Eminence dealer and a very righteous fellow to boot. In fact the 2512 is listed $10 less than the 2012 right now.