Replacing torn cones on Eden 2x10 - advice?

[ozacrot]

Generally speaking I feel like I have a pretty solid grasp of everything necessary to understanding basses and amplification. Every once in a while, though, a situation comes up that makes me aware of serious blind spots in my knowledge. This seems to be one of those situations.

Last Thursday, my band was playing a gig in Madison, WI (as an aside, what a great town.) Toward mid-late set, I noticed some awful things occurring to my tone. I looked over, and saw that one of the speaker cones on my Eden D210XLT had torn open. Really killed the rest of the show for me. (Thankfully, my Shuttle 6.0 has a DI running off the back, so the audience didn't have to deal with the same sound I did.) This is the first time I've ever damaged a cabinet, and it was a surprise when it happened - I've tried to be conscientious about powering the cab properly at all times, and though I've gotten towards the edge of the Shuttle's headroom before, I'm careful to make sure I'm not getting any amp distortion.

So, the next day, I took the cab to Deltronics back in Chicago to find out about my repair options. After finding out that it wouldn't be covered by warranty, and learning about the cost of reconing, it looks like I should plan to buy new speakers. (I work for a gear retail company, so I do have a couple options for at-cost speakers.) With all this background, I've got a couple questions:

1) The guy who took a look at the speaker noted that the other one was also creased, and diagnosed my problem as sending too much bass to the speaker. This seems... unusual, for a bass cab. I'm aware that being a 2x10, the XLT's bass response isn't going to be as good as a 1x15 - but is it dangerous to the speakers to operate at that level? According to the Eden website, the freq response goes down to 48 Hz, above the 41.whatever that a low E produces - could this be the issue? I'd rather not have to bring my 1x15 to every show from now on.

2) At the same time, I am seeing that there are 10" speakers available on the market that advertise a freq response at 40 Hz and below. (According to Eden's site, the stock-equipped 210XST goes down to 30 Hz - whoa.) Would this be likely to solve my problem? If so, anybody have suggestions for a good set of speakers? Currently thinking about the Eminence Legend BP102s. The guy recommended Kappa Pros if I can get them, though I don't know that I want PA speakers in my bass cab.

3) Alternately, is it possible that the damage to the cab was done by what I was sending into it? Personally, this strikes me as a little unlikely. My chain is a Ric 4003 going through a BBE Opto Stomp, vintage RAT, and Shuttle 6.0 (no boosts, eq'd with small boosts to bass and treble.)

[craig.p]

This is a tuned cabinet so I'd stick with the original drivers unless you can find someone who will spec your replacement speakers for you -- using cab and port dimensions you supply. Cab designers and speaker manufacturers typically work together on a final design; change just one variable and all that work can go right out the door. And if you don't get the tuning right, you may actually wind up in worse shape than before, power handling-wise.

The Ric produces lots of fundamentals that typically can not be heard in a live situation without massive amounts of watts and cone area, compared to something like a Precision or a Jazz, for example, and this is one reason I despise Rics in their stock configuration. It is a very "hi-fi" bass. I've found a high-pass filter of some sort can help. It could be that your fundamental-to-harmonic ratio was high enough that to get reasonable AUDIBLE volume you had to push your rig really hard down at the bottom end and you didn't realize you were doing it. Adding any bass boost at all only made the problem worse. And then there's the probability that there was all kinds of subsonic energy being reproduced, too; that's the stuff that cases causes "cone hop," which looks like someone's repeatedly touching a million-volt cattle prod to your speakers. With your amp at a stage-volume setting, take your E string between your thumb and forefinger and wiggle it hard and watch the cones -- if you see them move, you need to do something to get rid of that.

I'd say replace the speakers with the stock ones and start doing something about the low-end energy you're sending through that rig that isn't being heard and is just burning watts. A subsonic filter can help but the knee frequency will have to chosen correctly. Or, with the right set of tone controls, you could knock the sub-40 bass way down (which would knock down everything below it as well if it's of the shelving type) and use a parametric up a little bit higher, say around 80 or 100, to put the AUDIBLE bass back.

Disclaimer: I admit I have some non-mainstream ideas about subsonic energy and bass amplification, but after having been in audio in one form or another since the late sixties, I stand by everything I've said.

[rpsands]

Use basslite s2010s if you're OK with 4 ohms. Deltalites are fine too. Either will be fine replacements in that box, but I'd go for the basslites myself -- a lot cheaper for about the same bass performance (less mid sensitivity, but about the same bottom).


note: almost no bass cabs really have appreciable output at 40hz (usually -10db or more by then). I would lay dollars to donuts the Eden figures are outright lies, or indicating a -10db number (48hz).

That said, I wouldn't worry too much about 40hz output in a 2x10. It's not happening unless you use BP102s (which require a low crossed horn or mid driver) or buy an Acme.

[billfitzmaurice]

Reconing is the least expensive option. You can only get the best results with recone kits from the original manufacturer, and as Eden makes their own drivers they're the ones you should contact about who they supply kits to. They may even do their own re-coning.
Replacing the drivers with something other than the originals won't give the same results.

[VroomVroom]

I had an identical experience with my 210XLT - crapped out at a gig, saved by the DI. Whew. No complaints, really - my cab was nearly 10 years old and had served me well. The cheapest (and most logical, IMO) route was to simply go with new drivers from Eden, so FWIW I'd echo the advice above.

[DanScott]

I actually have 1 Eden 10" driver collecting dust, that would be cheaper than a recone, or would consider trades on as well.

[saintx]

Several years ago I had to replace two Eden 10's and an Epi 12 within a few months of each other. The gentleman from Epifani suggested I was using too many lows and hinted that his cabinet wasn't made for rock music. I'm a bit more careful now with regards to the "low" knob on the pre-amp (Kern), and I set the octave pedal to a more timid setting. I haven't had any speaker issues since the replacement. Same bass, same strings, same pre-amp, same power amp....

[Bassmec]

Sounds like time to get an 8 ohm 2 x 10 Xst to run with the other one once you get it re-cone'd.
Sounds like it would be far more reliable in the long term,
You might find it sounds better than putting 600 watts rms into a pair of tens. Bet its was a 4 ohm cab.
You might as well get both the drivers a re-cone with 16 ohm voice coils, I don't think the crossover is going to be affected
but check its hi pass only with eden.
With two stacked you would be able to hear when the drivers where beyond X lim.
As you are bound to have turned the other one half inside out
as well.
Bass the place where less is definitively less.

[WJGreer]

Originally Posted by billfitzmaurice

Replacing the drivers with something other than the originals won't give the same results.

Plus, I bet it would harm your resale situation, if that is important to you. Imagine how long an "Eden 210XLT with off-brand replacement cones" would sit on the classifieds board.

[ozacrot]

Thanks for the great responses so far, guys! I am definitely less terrified of what this will cost than I was before.

I hadn't mentioned, but it was an 8 ohm cab. My place of employ has the XLT in 8 ohm and the XST in 4 ohms. I went with the XLT so I could run it alongside my Ashdown 1x15 when I wanted to. Lesson learned? Looks like that Ashdown is gonna get a little more road time than I expected.

Either way, sounds like I'll be getting the stock cones. Deltronics is an authorized Eden repair center, so they most likely get their recone kit from the company - I'll double check with Eden though. In the meantime, per Craig's suggestion, I'm going to look into subharmonic filters. Does anybody have suggestions on solutions along those lines? Alternately, does anybody have other opinions on how I can avoid damaging this cab again? (Short of "buy another cab"... )

[Bass_Pounder]

Unfortunately, your asking just too much from that 2X10.

If you are running it past it's mechanical limits to the point of cone creasing and shredding, you need to either back down on the volume, cut way back on your low end freq's, or add another cab to the mix.

[muddycreek]

Originally Posted by ozacrot

Looks like that Ashdown is gonna get a little more road time than I expected.

Alternately, does anybody have other opinions on how I can avoid damaging this cab again? (Short of "buy another cab"... )

See sentence one.

Seriously, you are asking the cab to put out too much bottom and/or volume. You just need more cone area.

["T"]

Eden is up in Mundelien if this is any help. I ordered a couple 10" speakers and went up there and picked them up the next day. Could have picked them up that afternoon if I wanted.

Maybe they have the recone kits there too? I don't know, but good luck!

[georgestrings]

Originally Posted by Bass_Pounder

Unfortunately, your asking just too much from that 2X10.

If you are running it past it's mechanical limits to the point of cone creasing and shredding, you need to either back down on the volume, cut way back on your low end freq's, or add another cab to the mix.

Exactly what I was thinking...



- georgestrings

[BassmanPaul]

I'm going to say the same. IMO a 2x10 is inadequate to gig with. I use the 2x10 format exclusively. One to rehearse with, a pair stacked vertically to gig with and four for really big affairs.

Just because the amp is a bass amp and has a bass control doesn't mean you can crank the bass with impunity. It's better to drop the other EQs than to boost the bass.

Paul

[sawzalot]

Don't mix up frequency response with speaker excursion, either--they're two totally separate parameters. You can have a speaker that responds flat to 30 hz at 1 watt at 1 meter distance, but it will likely not do so well at 30 hz driven at 500 watts just because it will push the speaker beyond it's mechanical limits. That's probably what happened to you. Don't feel bad, happens to all of us. I've blown drivers in exactly the same way and it makes me mad every time. More speakers really helps--I think the best sound I had was two 4x10's stacked, but then each 4x10 weighed 90 lbs and the rack that drove them weighed in at about 80...too much for me these days!

Tom

[BassmanPaul]

Originally Posted by sawzalot

.too much for me these days!

Tom

ARE WE NOT MEN????

Paul