Reproduce fundamentals with your rig: yes/no

Arjank · #1 03-08-2011, 02:31 AM

To reproduce the fundamental tones of your bass with your rig or not, that's the question.
Fundamantal tones: E = 41hz low B = 31hz

I really would like to discuss this point since there are a lot of opinions about this matter. Of course it depends on the playing situation(with/without PA) and what type of sound you''re after. But I want to discus the advantages and the drawbacks of reproducing the fundamental tones of your bass.

heavyfunkmachin · #2 03-08-2011, 02:39 AM

***?

bassteban · #3 03-08-2011, 02:42 AM

I am also a tad bit confused; what is your question?

JtheJazzMan · #4 03-08-2011, 02:46 AM

Many rigs arent capable of producing the fundamental frequency in the 10's of hz in meaningful volume.

I have a markbass cmd121p, its portable and light which is good, but lacking in that low end. When I hook up a 4x10 extension the difference is fantastic, nice depth and oomph.

So yes, go as big as you can, or as much as you care to lug around.

Arjank · #5 03-08-2011, 02:51 AM

My question was not very clear so I edit the 1st post.

In short my question is, do you want your rig to fully reproduce the range from 30hz and up.
Or, do you think that focussing on the 1e harmonic content of the low E or B string is enough, say from 60hz and up.

bassteban · #6 03-08-2011, 02:57 AM

I tend to bump my mids if anything, but I also heard once that a pure fundamental is not really all that pleasing to the ear- a bass guitar's tone is usually full of harmonics, overtones & other non-fundamental noise, and that's what we A. like & are B. accustomed to. But don't quote me- I'm just enjoying a bout of insomnia.

JimmyM · #7 03-08-2011, 03:06 AM

nah, who needs it? all it ever does for me when using a rig that can do it is make the mix muddier. you hear those notes way more from the second harmonic anyway.

Arjank · #8 03-08-2011, 03:13 AM

Quote:

nah, who needs it? all it ever does for me when using a rig that can do it is make the mix muddier.

+1

Thats one of the points I did discus with a bassist and a drummer/soundguy.
Lowend rig + lowend PA = mud

Mainly caused by phase problems (2 sources that produce long wave lenghts at different positions and that have both a different phaseresponse)

T-Bird · #9 03-08-2011, 03:18 AM

Hi.

ATM, my answer is no.

The power demand is something that I can't afford. Without DSP the low end (below 50Hz) is very hard to reproduce and control anyway, even if there was enough power.

In the future I will try to build a rig that will reproduce F# with some authority though.

Regards
Sam

JimmyM · #10 03-08-2011, 03:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arjank

+1

Thats one of the points I did discus with a bassist and a drummer/soundguy.
Lowend rig + lowend PA = mud

Mainly caused by phase problems (2 sources that produce long wave lenghts at different positions and that have both a different phaseresponse)

that's part of it, plus the bass drum's low end usually resides at the 30-60 hz point through a pa, and when combined with the bass at those low freqs, insanity will ensue.

btw, clustering your subs together at either the front of the stage or one side or the other goes a long way into getting rid of the problems with separate point sources for the low end.

Arjank · #11 03-08-2011, 03:38 AM

Quote:

that's part of it, plus the bass drum's low end usually resides at the 30-60 hz point through a pa, and when combined with the bass at those low freqs, insanity will ensue.

Plus, soundguys have a tendency to give the bassdrum a slight, ahum, hump to make it punch.
Most of them never heard of frequency slotting...

MuzikMan · #12 03-08-2011, 03:46 AM

Lately I have been using a high pass at 100hz just like our mains and let the subs do the work. These are small settings of 100 people or less. Even out front I don't like a lot of information below 60hz for electric bass guitar.

i_got_a_mohawk · #13 03-08-2011, 03:51 AM

Sartori · #14 03-08-2011, 04:51 AM

In the mixes I'm usually in, deep lows are not what I'm after. Plus then I'm just competing with the bass drum. I go with a more nasty, mid-oriented distorted sound.

A bit less nasty and less mid oriented when I'm playing with the folk rock band than when I'm playing with the black metal band.

Matthijs · #15 03-08-2011, 04:52 AM

I do like them to be present in the background. They should not be to powerfull, but also not totally absent. Last night I had to play over a Trace elliot 4*10 that didn't have any fundamental and it felt uncomplete to me. I think this is even more important for URB.

lowfreq33 · #16 03-08-2011, 04:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arjank

Plus, soundguys have a tendency to give the bassdrum a slight, ahum, hump to make it punch.
Most of them never heard of frequency slotting...

That's a bit of a broad statement.

Arjank · #17 03-08-2011, 05:13 AM

Quote:

That's a bit of a broad statement.

Yes it is....
But I did experience it very often.
There are excellent soundguys though. I did play in a jazz/funk/fusion band and we had our own soundman, we had two drummers but he knew how to keep the low end from getting cluttered.

Quote:

I do like them to be present in the background. They should not be to powerfull, but also not totally absent.

+1

KJung · #18 03-08-2011, 05:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arjank

My question was not very clear so I edit the 1st post.

In short my question is, do you want your rig to fully reproduce the range from 30hz and up.
Or, do you think that focussing on the 1e harmonic content of the low E or B string is enough, say from 60hz and up.

Reproducing the true fundamental of the lowest notes of a bass at high SPL (i.e., without being down 10db or whatever) is something very few cabs can do. As an ex Acme user (which could reproduce the fundamental of those lowest notes), thank goodness most don't... sucks power, adds much down low, and covers up the mid complexity IMO and IME.

The key, though, is that many cabs don't hve the mechanical specs to really pound at that 50hz level that you need for a nice, fat, articulate low end all the way down to the open B. That is changing now, and there are some amazing executions by Jim Bergantino, LDS, Audiokinesis, etc. that just POUND the low end without a lot of compression or boom/flub

Marko5657 · #19 03-08-2011, 05:25 AM

Maybe getting a set of DR Jonas Hellborg strings might help keep closer to the fundamental. I’m not sure how one could do it with just the rig, at least in any way that would sound good.

KJung · #20 03-08-2011, 05:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marko5657

Maybe getting a set of DR Jonas Hellborg strings might help keep closer to the fundamental. I’m not sure how one could do it with just the rig, at least in any way that would sound good.

Not sure what that would have to do with it. A speaker cab will roll-off significantly at a certain point. You can add that back in with EQ in some cases, but then you end up with mechanical issues (i.e., the driver combined with the tuning of the box not really able to reproduce those deep frequencies without compression and, in extreme cases, farting).

The 'sweet spot' (IMO) for most 'good' bass low end is in that 50hz to 100 hz region IMO, and there are cabs that do that VERY well.