RH450 + RS210 - Not Loud Enough

[Eublet]

Yep, never heard even one report of low horsepower before that BGM article. It was in fact quite the opposite, with people reporting how it was trouncing their favorite 500 watt micro. TB is so fickle and hypocritical when it comes to things like this.

The RH750 is much punchier than the RH450 because of that extra headroom. It also is able to better utilize the power via the APM technology which makes this head what it is. But in the case of the OP, it wouldn't give you a lot more volume through a single 210, though it would definitely feel more "willing" and lively then the 450 does. Adding a second RS210 is the easiest way to have your same sound, only much louder.

[pedro]

The whole underpowered thing mystifies me too. I've been playing local clubs and bars with a 450 and RS 2x10 with no PA support for a couple of years with no problems at all.

[Fishheadjoe]

I have a 450 and an RS210... actually initially, I had the 2x12 as well. Sounded good in the show room, but once I had a chance to open it up, I didn't like the sound*.
I then moved up to a Berg AE410 because of punch, portability and volume.
*** volume was ok but sound was not for me****
I'm in a similar situation to you in that I play with a loud group, that has no p/a support outside of vox... I am required to carry the room.
The Berg did that just fine, however I found myself pushing the amp hard, to get a full bottom end.
I have since religated the 450 to back up status as I grabbed a Hartke 3500 for a good price. I can't tell you how much different that amp sounds, compared to the 450. I've also moved up to a NV610 that just cruises along at any of our gigs.
In short, (I know too late now!) short term solution, just get another RS210... and if you get the opportunity, see if you can try another amp with those cabs, it was a real eye opener for me!
Fishheadjoe

[JHAz]

Originally Posted by pedro

The whole underpowered thing mystifies me too. I've been playing local clubs and bars with a 450 and RS 2x10 with no PA support for a couple of years with no problems at all.

No great mystery if you roll around in that Bass Gear Mag article a bit. If I'm playing an amp that puts out 750 watts cleanly, and I'm not distorting it at any point, and (like most basses) the initioal milliseconds long transient of my plucked notes is at least 6 dB louder than the sustain, then my millisecond or so of leading edge transient can use 750 watts, and the sustain will be at 187 watts (750 divided by four because each 3 dB adds or reduces power by half.)

TC's ower management keeps that initial spike from using so much power in a way that for many players is completely trnasparent (or at least sounds good). So it doesn't need 4 times the power for the transients.

THEN you factor in the fact that the sustain part of the note falls off pretty quickly, and if you compress it, you can keep that level higher. Again, even if my "real" 750 watt amp I'm clipping on the transient and the sustain is averaging at 200 watts, it's probably running between 250 or higher and 100 or something during the note. TC's processing compresses that note to keep it louder throughuot it's "life" so you don't need a bunch of power to keep the beginning of the sustain loud enough that the end of the sustain is still audible. Viola! For many TC's processing yields SPLs that function fully equivalently to amps that put out much more real world power.

You can see in their repsponse to the BGM review that TC is proud of the engineering. I just wish they'd describe it more accurately, but I recognize the marketing realities. How much harder would it be for most of us to pull the trigger on an amp that "sounds as loud as a 750 watt amp even though it only puts out a little under 240 watts?" Heck how many of us would take the time to read the whole sentence? Show me the power number, man!

[pedro]

Originally Posted by JHAz

No great mystery if you roll around in that Bass Gear Mag article a bit. If I'm playing an amp that puts out 750 watts cleanly, and I'm not distorting it at any point, and (like most basses) the initioal milliseconds long transient of my plucked notes is at least 6 dB louder than the sustain, then my millisecond or so of leading edge transient can use 750 watts, and the sustain will be at 187 watts (750 divided by four because each 3 dB adds or reduces power by half.)

TC's ower management keeps that initial spike from using so much power in a way that for many players is completely trnasparent (or at least sounds good). So it doesn't need 4 times the power for the transients.

THEN you factor in the fact that the sustain part of the note falls off pretty quickly, and if you compress it, you can keep that level higher. Again, even if my "real" 750 watt amp I'm clipping on the transient and the sustain is averaging at 200 watts, it's probably running between 250 or higher and 100 or something during the note. TC's processing compresses that note to keep it louder throughuot it's "life" so you don't need a bunch of power to keep the beginning of the sustain loud enough that the end of the sustain is still audible. Viola! For many TC's processing yields SPLs that function fully equivalently to amps that put out much more real world power.

You can see in their repsponse to the BGM review that TC is proud of the engineering. I just wish they'd describe it more accurately, but I recognize the marketing realities. How much harder would it be for most of us to pull the trigger on an amp that "sounds as loud as a 750 watt amp even though it only puts out a little under 240 watts?" Heck how many of us would take the time to read the whole sentence? Show me the power number, man!

WHOOOOOOOSSSSSHHHH! (The sound of technical speak going over pedro's pretty little head.)

[JHAz]

Originally Posted by pedro

WHOOOOOOOSSSSSHHHH! (The sound of technical speak going over pedro's pretty little head.)

Short version: The reason TC amps sound as loud as much more powerful amps is because those much more powerful amps are not putting out more than the TC (ie they're acutally using less than 240 watts) during the important parts of each note.

[pedro]

Originally Posted by JHAz

Short version: The reason TC amps sound as loud as much more powerful amps is because those much more powerful amps are not putting out more than the TC (ie they're acutally using less than 240 watts) during the important parts of each note.

Well whatever the watts are its been more than enough for any of the small to medium sized clubs we play.

[Eublet]

Originally Posted by JHAz

Short version: The reason TC amps sound as loud as much more powerful amps is because those much more powerful amps are not putting out more than the TC (ie they're acutally using less than 240 watts) during the important parts of each note.

I'd say this is a somewhat decent summarization, although I don't think the term "important" is the best. For lots of people the initial punch of a solid state amp is very important to them, and they don't care for tube heads or heads like the RH that seek to emulate that. The RH design is very advanced and has it's own characteristics that will make some like it and other not like it. It's really no more complex than that, but drive-by trolling on TB will continue, and many people who don't like the way the head sounds will have to find a reason they can blame, and the APM feature is likely going to be the scape goat simply because it's easy for most people to blame something they don't understand rather than just say they like something else better.

[pedro]

Originally Posted by Eublet

I'd say this is a somewhat decent summarization, although I don't think the term "important" is the best. For lots of people the initial punch of a solid state amp is very important to them, and they don't care for tube heads or heads like the RH that seek to emulate that. The RH design is very advanced and has it's own characteristics that will make some like it and other not like it. It's really no more complex than that, but drive-by trolling on TB will continue, and many people who don't like the way the head sounds will have to find a reason they can blame, and the APM feature is likely going to be the scape goat simply because it's easy for most people to blame something they don't understand rather than just say they like something else better.

Liking or not liking is one thing but saying its not loud enough in the given situation is what I find hard to fathom.

[Eublet]

Originally Posted by pedro

Liking or not liking is one thing but saying its not loud enough in the given situation is what I find hard to fathom.

I'm not sure what you mean, but IME I've seldom had an issue EVER with volume because of a head. Volume is more a function of speaker than anything else. A 410 with a budget model 150 watt head will be loud enough for most anything. A very nice 500 watt head through a little 112 or 210 not so much. The RS210's are great, but they are also quite small. The boxes are small, by design, which gives them a very tight and punchy sound. Driving them harder with more wattage will not change that. Said another way, most any 210 will get as loud as it's going to get very quickly with most any amp, and then there will be a point of diminished return as you push more power into it. Believe it or not, 100 watts into a 210 will probably get it up to it's max volume. Now, one head might be punchier than another, and the tone could be totally different between any two heads. If that tone and feel of a different head causes that same volume level to suddenly be great for you, then it can be difficult to quantify what the original issue really was, volume or something else?

Excellent advice has already been given in this thread. If the tone is good, but you just need more volume, then add another RS210. You'll increase available wattage from the head which will result in more headroom and punch, all while adding more radiating surface that will push more air.

[pedro]

Originally Posted by Eublet

I'm not sure what you mean, but IME I've seldom had an issue EVER with volume because of a head. Volume is more a function of speaker than anything else. A 410 with a budget model 150 watt head will be loud enough for most anything. A very nice 500 watt head through a little 112 or 210 not so much. The RS210's are great, but they are also quite small. The boxes are small, by design, which gives them a very tight and punchy sound. Driving them harder with more wattage will not change that. Said another way, most any 210 will get as loud as it's going to get very quickly with most any amp, and then there will be a point of diminished return as you push more power into it. Believe it or not, 100 watts into a 210 will probably get it up to it's max volume. Now, one head might be punchier than another, and the tone could be totally different between any two heads. If that tone and feel of a different head causes that same volume level to suddenly be great for you, then it can be difficult to quantify what the original issue really was, volume or something else?

Excellent advice has already been given in this thread. If the tone is good, but you just need more volume, then add another RS210. You'll increase available wattage from the head which will result in more headroom and punch, all while adding more radiating surface that will push more air.

I'm sure you're right but I think you're reading way more into my comment than I intended. I merely mean that I've never had a problem being heard playing rock/pop/r&b/ in small to medium clubs with my 450 and one RS210.

[Eublet]

Originally Posted by pedro

I'm sure you're right but I think you're reading way more into my comment than I intended. I merely mean that I've never had a problem being heard playing rock/pop/r&b/ in small to medium clubs with my 450 and one RS210.

Oh, I should apologize then. I really haven't intended any of my comments here toward any one person or you. Sometimes it seems that way, especially if you quote someone, give a direct reply, and then start talking generally on the subject afterward. Sometimes it makes it seem like the entire response was just for that one person. Not sure if I did that here without going back and checking my posts, but if so it wasn't my intention. I never had an issue with my RH450 and RS210 either and played in some quite loud environments sometimes, but I feel like I have a good handle on what to expect a 210 to do. As with most things in life, expectations are what prevent issues and protect you from disappointment. I think that many people just don't know what to expect out of some of the gear they have chosen, and it sets them up for bad experiences that shouldn't be blamed on the gear.

[pedro]

Originally Posted by Eublet

Oh, I should apologize then. I really haven't intended any of my comments here toward any one person or you. Sometimes it seems that way, especially if you quote someone, give a direct reply, and then start talking generally on the subject afterward. Sometimes it makes it seem like the entire response was just for that one person. Not sure if I did that here without going back and checking my posts, but if so it wasn't my intention. I never had an issue with my RH450 and RS210 either and played in some quite loud environments sometimes, but I feel like I have a good handle on what to expect a 210 to do. As with most things in life, expectations are what prevent issues and protect you from disappointment. I think that many people just don't know what to expect out of some of the gear they have chosen, and it sets them up for bad experiences that shouldn't be blamed on the gear.

No worries Jason.

[Newbie-Doo]

Originally Posted by pedro

Isn't it odd that whenever somebody is getting drowned out that the solution is for that person to turn up rather than have everyone else turn down?

The hard part is finding a drummer with a volume knob. hehe...

Seriously though, a drummer either has a built-in feel for appropriate volume, or they don't.

You can tell them to turn down, but once they start to get into their "groove", its back to "more bashing=more awesome".

[pedro]

Originally Posted by Newbie-Doo

The hard part is finding a drummer with a volume knob. hehe...

Seriously though, a drummer either has a built-in feel for appropriate volume, or they don't.

You can tell them to turn down, but once they start to get into their "groove", its back to "more bashing=more awesome".

They've been listening to Bonham more than DeJohnette.

[LowEndGroover]

Originally Posted by Newbie-Doo

The hard part is finding a drummer with a volume knob. hehe...

Seriously though, a drummer either has a built-in feel for appropriate volume, or they don't.

You can tell them to turn down, but once they start to get into their "groove", its back to "more bashing=more awesome".

Like this?

Check out this video on YouTube:

http://youtu.be/6DVbt5W-DNc

[pedro]

The great drummers can play with energy and precision at any volume.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NDU9691Q-Uw

[Newbie-Doo]

Originally Posted by LowEndGroover

Like this?

Check out this video on YouTube:

http://youtu.be/6DVbt5W-DNc

Hahaha...that guys is AWESOME. Love that video.