Rig/Amp Set up Questions - Please help!

[mjg2335]

Hello Everyone, First time/long time… Awesome forum!!!

Got a few questions, did some searching & found some good advice, if someone can confirm what I have going on here, it would be sooo much appreciated!

My rig is a Squire Jaguar (passive)>some f/x>VT Deluxe>SWR Redhead w/specs below:
Speaker: 2x10" Custom-Designed 8 Ohm Eminence® Drivers
Speaker Impedance: 4 Ohms

So, seems I’m always maxing out my amp, but of course I’d like to not damage it & make it last, and just not worry about being under powered. I can feel myself playing harder trying to get more out of it & it leads to clipping (as I understand, clipping the pre-amp a little is ok, but not the power amp), fatigue, & so on. I’m just kinda sick of worrying about it & just want to turn up & play! I bought the Redhead because I thought it would be loud enough as well as mobile…
A couple of months ago, I bought a Genz-Benz GB 210T-XB2 (4ohm) XB2 SERIES | GENZ BENZ
to use at a show w/ no PA & also keep & bring to practice so I could reduce the load to my amp – it was the only 4ohm cabinet I could find around & figured it would max the wattage from my amp (specs say 350 W stand alone, 450 W w/4 ohm extension cabinet).
It just doesn’t seem to be doing the trick. I thought this would be more than enough, but it almost seems weaker. I know I’m putting a lot of pressure on the head, I have the onboard compressor up to about 8 (around 2 or 3 o’clock) & now it just doesn’t sound good, kinda farty. I’ve played around with EQ’ing in the low mids to cut thru, but it’s still not ‘cutting’ it. On top of that, I think there’s a little rattle in the Redhead. I’m flummoxed! Spent a lot of money on this rig, the Redhead sounds great, I just can’t get the volume I want out of it.

So here are my questions:
1) I’ve read here that wattage is not necessarily as important as the surface area of the speakers (I got the 2x10 for both reasons) but I’m thinking of getting a “matched” cabinet, the SWR Goliath 4x10 (8 Ohm version), which would put me at 2.67 ohms & not the max wattage.
2) I guess it’s mostly about the first question- do you guys/gals think this will do the trick for me? I’m thinking 4x10 will give me more speakers & the 8 ohm version will do less wear & tear on the head. Can anyone give some input on this? I don’t really want to spend much more money, SWR stuff is pretty expensive!!!
3) Do you think I’m not getting what I need out of this because the GB is not “matched” to the SWR?
4) OK, if not dumb already: with the passive Jaguar> VT Deluxe, should I be in the Active or Passive input of the Redhead? I usually use active cuz of the VT, but have been using the passive lately cuz it’s louder. I’m thinking this might not be a good idea.
5) I brought the Redhead to a local repair tech & said the amp was ok, but I’m still unsure because of the small rattle & how much I’ve been pushing it.

Any suggestions/comments/feedback would be greatly appreciated. I’m just a hobbyist, but love to play & have a great band & a headlining gig a week from this Saturday!

Thanks in advance everyone!!!!!
Mark G.

[Gearhead17]

1. Speakers are much more important than wattage. Your head seems decent, but SWR is famous for not having much tone at the 200-400 range. Boosting that range is a good idea and is usually necessary for a bass tone to be heard in a rock band.

2. You are asking too much from a 210, a 410 would definitely be better - any ohm value (4 or 8) the head can definitely handle it.

3. You don't need to match one head to one cabinet. Just keep in mind that SWR is usually going to sound a little quieter than the competition. The heavy loss of the 200-400hz range is something that drives most from buying SWR heads. They are not rock band friendly and low mids are VERY HELPFUL in a band situation to hear your notes and to get actual presence on bass notes.

4. Active and Passive inputs. Plug into the Passive input with every bass FIRST. If the red peak light is constantly lighting up and/or you are overdriving the input hard right away, then plug it into the Active input. Along with that, if the input gain is at 1/10 and you can only go up to 2/10, you might want to plug into the Active input. I use Active basses all the time and have used the passive input every single time.

5. The rattle might just be a few loose screws.

Get an 8 ohm 410, and if you are doing shows on your own, I suggest two 410's, both at 8 ohms. 4 ohm load, two 410's, you will be able to turn up and play for once.

[mjg2335]

Gearhead17,
YOU ROCK!!! I really appreciate your time & your advice.
I'm going to start looking for a 4x10, 8ohm, should do the trick.
I'll experiment with the mids and inputs as suggested as well.

Thanks very much!
Mark

[Jim Carr]

Wait! Not so fast. Isn't the redhead built-in cab 4ohm? Matching that to an 8 ohm 410 is not ideal at all.

An 8 ohm 210 matches with a 4 ohm 410—assuming the drivers are similar or identical. I do it all the time.

Your suggested arrangement will overwork your built-ins and under use the 410.

[Gearhead17]

Originally Posted by Jim Carr

Wait! Not so fast. Isn't the redhead built-in cab 4ohm? Matching that to an 8 ohm 410 is not ideal at all.

An 8 ohm 210 matches with a 4 ohm 410—assuming the drivers are similar or identical. I do it all the time.

Your suggested arrangement will overwork your built-ins and under use the 410.

Thanks for catching that! I missed the Redhead was a 210 combo - wasn't there a version just with the head?

Looks like you have to find a matching 210 or just disconnect the 210 from the combo and use something else. Can the SWR Red Head be removed from the cab? You could mount the Red Head into a shell of some sort and use any cab you want.

[mjg2335]

Yikes! So I do need a 4 ohm 4x10? Was kinda worried about that cuz I can't find one anywhere, only 8 ohm. I really want to buy used (or preferably trade the Genz-Benz) and not have to order one, but that's my problem...

I'd rather not separate the Red-head from the combo. Damn!

[Gearhead17]

Originally Posted by mjg2335

Yikes! So I do need a 4 ohm 4x10? Was kinda worried about that cuz I can't find one anywhere, only 8 ohm. I really want to buy used (or preferably trade the Genz-Benz) and not have to order one, but that's my problem...

I'd rather not separate the Red-head from the combo. Damn!

No, you do not need a 4ohm 410. You need to disconnect the 210 from the combo and plug straight into an 8 ohm 410. 350 watts right? Should be a great start there.

[mjg2335]

Well, I just did some looking around, it looks like SWR makes a 4 ohm 4x10 Working Pro for $550, which isn't as bad as I was thinking (like $700-900). If that's the cab that will solve my issues, I can probably make some deals with my local shop, with which I have a very good relationship. Sounds like this is the way to go?

Thanks guys for your input

Edit: ok Gh17, yes, 350 watts, but I may go ahead & take the plunge as I have listed above, that way I'll have basically a 6x10 at 450 watts, which should be plenty.
I appreciate your help very much!

[BurningSkies]

I haven't looked at the manual, but I can sort of draw a few conclusions from knowing a bit about how most combo amps are designed. Lots of times, while they have an output for an extension speaker, its wired in series rather than parallel, especially when the combo speakers are a 4ohm load. What this means, is that when you add another 4ohm cab, you're doubling the impedance load your amp sees: 8ohms. I've never scoped out an SWR combo's specs, but I bet you'll find that with two cabs you're getting reduced wattage compared to the combo alone. Also, I've never seen anyone list a Redhead as a 2ohm capable amp.

That doesn't mean that the amp is quieter (since while you've reduced wattage, you've added speakers), but it means that you're not getting any extra power along with your added speakers.

Another thing...SWR, due to their natural built in EQ curve and extended lows, tends to eat up wattage and not seem as loud as other cabs of similar rated wattage.

[Gearhead17]

The Working Pro 410 is a budget bass cab - I suggest trying it out first with YOUR gear before buying it or utilize the 30 day return period. Many times, budget bass cabs are built to a price point and are not very loud or great sounding at all. See if you like it first.

I have no experience with that particular cab.

[Jim Carr]

Originally Posted by BurningSkies

I haven't looked at the manual, but I can sort of draw a few conclusions from knowing a bit about how most combo amps are designed. Lots of times, while they have an output for an extension speaker, its wired in series rather than parallel, especially when the combo speakers are a 4ohm load. What this means, is that when you add another 4ohm cab, you're doubling the impedance load your amp sees: 8ohms. I've never scoped out an SWR combo's specs, but I bet you'll find that with two cabs you're getting reduced wattage compared to the combo alone. Also, I've never seen anyone list a Redhead as a 2ohm capable amp.

That doesn't mean that the amp is quieter (since while you've reduced wattage, you've added speakers), but it means that you're not getting any extra power along with your added speakers.

Another thing...SWR, due to their natural built in EQ curve and extended lows, tends to eat up wattage and not seem as loud as other cabs of similar rated wattage.

Hi Burning!

I think the Redhead's amp is essentially an SWR Pro redface that has 350 watts into 4 ohms, and is 2 ohm capable, I think.

It is designed to work well with a goliath junior 210 or son of bertha (115) as extension speakers, pretty sure in parallel.

IMHO, the OP needs a new head and a new cab. Since that is a big layout, I suggest getting a very good 8 ohm cab, and then a new head as soon as possible. If the cab has reasonable sensitivity and efficency, it will work for now. In fact, he already has a pretty good 8 ohm 210 extension. (Genz Benz Neo?) Why is that not working out?

Some possibilities:

A phase difference between cabs (speaker cable issue). Check/compare the way the cables are wired. Double check.

Enhance knob on SWR must be off.

EQ on SWR—as earlier noted by another poster, a Mid bump is needed, with bass not bumped, and treble rolled off, use only passive input, and ditch those darned effects...

Get a compressor.

Broken driver?

[mjg2335]

Thanks BurningSkies, maybe that's why it appears "weaker" to me. This is why I was looking at the 4x10 option to go for the "surface area" as I've read about.

This impedance stuff is nuts, huh?

Gearhead, yes, thing is I guess I'll have to order one (buy it), try it, & then see if it fits the bill as I haven't been able to find one around. I think I really only need the extension cab for rehearsals & the occasional party, as I've played w/ just the Redhead live w/ a PA. Still couldn't hear everything, but it was passable. I guess I don't have to have the ultimate tone for rehearsal, but if I'm spending the $ it'd be nice to go for the best tones possible. Ugh.

[BurningSkies]

Originally Posted by Jim Carr

Hi Burning!

I think the Redhead's amp is essentially an SWR Pro redface that has 350 watts into 4 ohms, and is 2 ohm capable, I think.

It is designed to work well with a goliath junior 210 or son of bertha (115) as extension speakers, pretty sure in parallel.

IMHO, the OP needs a new head and a new cab. Since that is a big layout, I suggest getting a very good 8 ohm cab, and then a new head as soon as possible. If the cab has reasonable sensitivity and efficency, it will work for now. In fact, he already has a pretty good 8 ohm 210 extension. (Genz Benz Neo?) Why is that not working out?

Some possibilities:

A phase difference between cabs (speaker cable issue). Check/compare the way the cables are wired. Double check.

Enhance knob on SWR must be off.

EQ on SWR—as earlier noted by another poster, a Mid bump is needed, with bass not bumped, and treble rolled off, use only passive input, and ditch those darned effects...

Get a compressor.

Broken driver?

You're right. I looked up the PDF on the Super Redhead and it says:

POWER OUTPUT (minimum):
350 Watts @ 4 ohms (internal)
400 Watts @ 2.67 ohms (or with an 8 ohm extension speaker connected)
450 Watts @ 2 ohms (or with a 4 ohm extension speaker connected)
Note: Internal speaker impedance is 4 ohms.

[Jim Carr]

Since he has the GB 210 4 ohm, and the rig is not sounding good, either something is wrong (phase or EQ) or he needs another GB 210 4 ohm and a nice Shuttle 6.0.

[BurningSkies]

Originally Posted by Jim Carr

Since he has the GB 210 4 ohm, and the rig is not sounding good, either something is wrong (phase or EQ) or he needs another GB 210 4 ohm and a nice Shuttle 6.0.

I'd suggest to anyone who's maxing out their amp frequently (or at all for that matter), that its time to look for a new head that can provide the necessary volume. If you're already at 'max' there's no dynamic left in the amp, no headroom. Since the amp is a 350-450w amp, I'd be looking for something in the 800w range myself.

[Jim Carr]

Originally Posted by BurningSkies

I'd suggest to anyone who's maxing out their amp frequently (or at all for that matter), that its time to look for a new head that can provide the necessary volume. If you're already at 'max' there's no dynamic left in the amp, no headroom. Since the amp is a 350-450w amp, I'd be looking for something in the 800w range myself.

+1

Yikes, I just realized that the 4 ohm 210 + 4 ohm 210 approach will not work with the Shuttle 6.0 or 9.0 as they are not 2 ohm capable.

[mjg2335]

Hi Jim, thanks for your replies.
I was hoping it wasn't going to come to a new amp, but it is what it is I guess. I will check the speaker cables, although I'm not too sure what I'll be looking for. I definitely did turn up the aural enhancer because it sounded like I was getting a little bit of a fatter sound with it.

[Jim Carr]

Aural enhancer scoops out the mids—sounds good soft and solo. In a band needing volume, not so good.

Are you using 1/4" plug (phone jack) speaker cables, or speakons?

[mjg2335]

You too, BurningSkies, and everyone, thank you.

So you guys don't think the 4 ohm 4x10 would do the trick? I understand about the head room, but I was hoping I could bring it down a few notches with the extra speakers. But as Burning implied, there's a chance I won't be getting the max out of the head anyway. Hmm, this is kind of a bummer cuz I bought the Redhead brand new at $1600, that coulda been the start of a nice rig.

Jim, I'm using speakons.

[Jim Carr]

I am no expert on speakons, but make sure they are wired identically. Then check and see what SWR and GB specify. If they are the same, then look around for the 9 volt battery test that can verify phase of cabinets.

The 4 ohm 410 might be an interim step. What cab?