Sealed Cab: Alpha or B810?

Triad · #1 09-09-2011, 12:08 PM

Hello! I'm going to build a vertical alignment 4x10" (or 6x10", still haven't decided) and I've reduced the choice of drivers to these two (due to the EBP etc.).
I see that the B810 are close to what Ampeg uses in its 810... good Xmax and a bigger magnet. The Alpha is a bit more sensitive but has a smaller Xmax (maybe 1mm less) and costs less. I've spent hours studying the specs of both drivers but would like a first hand opinion from players who used/listened to both. Should I go for the more sensitive (and cheaper) Alphas or choose the B810 for their bigger XMAX and slightly wider frequency response? My guess is that they would sound pretty similar but you know, I have no way to audition them before I buy... thanx in advance!

JimmyM · #2 09-09-2011, 01:48 PM

Really good question...kind of a push, isn't it? I never used either one, but I think either will make a nice vertical 410 that sounds Ampeggy.

Triad · #3 09-09-2011, 01:56 PM

Yeah, it's a hard choice. I mean... without actually listening to a cabinet with these speakers I can't decide if the extra lows of the B810 are worth the extra money and the lower sensitivity. I was also tempted to get an 810 but (apart from the usual drivers pattern and the lack of a tweeter) the used market down here is bad for those beasts.
A pair of 410HE could be slightly better and would cost the same. But even if they have tweeters they still have the "standard" drivers alignment and are pretty heavy.
I'm probably going to use a similar drivers arrangement... but of course, sealed with more drivers.

JimmyM · #4 09-09-2011, 02:03 PM

Ya, I've been using two SVT 210av cabs vertically and it kills! But they're light/medium duty cabs and I don't push them very hard, and there's no tweeter. Ampeg's Pro Neo 210's might work for you, but I've never heard any of those Pro Neo cabs and I know nothing about them.

Triad · #5 09-09-2011, 02:06 PM

I think we need the help of Mr. Fitzmaurice or Duke Lejeune... maybe if I write his name three times in a row he'll suddenly show up, like in Beetlejuice. Let's try:

BILLFITZMAURICE!

BILLFITZMAURICE!

BILLFITZMAURICE!

Windreaper · #6 09-09-2011, 02:16 PM

What kind of an amp are you using? The B810 will get you much better lows (in a similar enclosure) but you need more power to get there. Unless I had, say, 300W or more to drive that cab, I would use the Alpha due to lower cost and better broadband sensitivity.

Triad · #7 09-09-2011, 02:25 PM

I actually have a G&K MB200 but can get a bigger amp if it's needed. Most of my bass work is in the house or at rehearsals but you know, the sound and feel of a big bunch of speaker is totally different from what you get with a single 12", for example. With the same volume, the 4 (or 8x10) will always sound much better, so I wouldn't skimp on drivers.

The price difference... 4 Alphas cost £117 and 4 B810 cost £188. Let's say 1/3 more.
And... the Beetlejuice thing didn't work!

Windreaper · #8 09-09-2011, 02:29 PM

Yup, looks like you won't need the extra Xmax of the B810 so I would definitely use the Alpha for reasons mentioned above.

Triad · #9 09-09-2011, 02:31 PM

You think I'll feel the difference in XMAX only pushing the drivers with high watts?

Windreaper · #10 09-09-2011, 02:38 PM

The larger Xmax of the B810s would allow you to push the cab with roughly twice the wattage before being displacement limited (limited by driver Xmax) getting you roughly 3dB more max SPL. However, the Alpha is on average 3dB more sensitive (with lows being more or less equal) meaning that the Alpha would be louder at similar wattage unless displacement limited. You won't become displacement limited with the Alphas using the MB200 (unless you build a stupid large box). In addition, I would personally prefer the smooth frequency response of the Alpha with a nice little dip at 800Hz and slightly rising upper mid response.

Triad · #11 09-09-2011, 02:42 PM

I've been doing the same math for days, maybe weeks.

I saw Bill Fitzmaurice article about 8x10"s and the cabinet size... since the thing would be sealed I guess I could use half the volume of an Ampeg 810, maybe a bit more. And stuff it beastly

bobodechimp · #12 09-09-2011, 03:18 PM

is there a big difference in speaker placement? and if so please explane

Triad · #13 09-09-2011, 03:52 PM

If you search for "Dispersion" in this section you'll find several answers to your question given by Billfitzmaurice. Just to make it short, 2 drivers orizontally placed act like a larger one and the larger is the driver, the worse is the orizzontal dispersion of soundwaves, expecially in the mids. So if you use your cab as a monitor and you stand in front of it no problem... but if you walk or if you have no PA for the crowd and they have to hear the bass from your amp, the peoples sitting "off-axis" (not in front of your amp) will have troubles hearing the mids while the low frequencies will kill them

But in Bill's replies it's explained very well (English is not my first language).

Going back on the topic, I'm actually considering I could get a bigger amp, maybe a PF350 or an Ashdown Spyder 330. But I'm pretty sure that I'll have enough headroom with the MB.

kringle77 · #14 09-09-2011, 04:04 PM

I own and have used both drivers. You definitely want the B810 drivers. They are just better bass drivers. If it was me, I'd use 3 B810's and 1 jensen mod10-50 32 ohm driver. You'll get the punch and powerhandling from the eminence and all the top end you could want from the jensen. The alphas sound good sounding but, this combo will give you the most power handling, tone and options. This is exactly the cab I have thought about building in the past. Put the 3 B810s in one chamber and the jensen in it's own.

Triad · #15 09-09-2011, 04:07 PM

So you'd mix drivers that should cover more or less the same spectrum? Isn't it better to have a tweeter or a 6" for the highs?
How different is the low end of the Alpha VS B810? Since it's sealed with 10" I'm a bit worried it could sound a bit too dry.

kringle77 · #16 09-09-2011, 04:42 PM

The B810 has WAY more low end output. I've been down the midrange driver road. For the sealed cab, ampeg, bergantino type sound, you want a jensen mod10-50 to match. As long as it is in a seperate chamber from the B810's, you don't even need a crossover. Im telling you, I have experimented with this way more than I want to admit. This is the combo.

JimmyM · #17 09-09-2011, 04:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Triad

So you'd mix drivers that should cover more or less the same spectrum? Isn't it better to have a tweeter or a 6" for the highs?

If you did that, you'd cross it over at a point that wouldn't matter anyway, probably around 4k for a tweet or 800-1500 for a 6". Kringle's idea is in case you're wanting to run the woofers full range. The Mod cuts down on your power handling a bit, but it's a little brighter and he says it makes the B810's sound a little more vintage high-endy.

Triad · #18 09-09-2011, 04:46 PM

Looks like my dealer doesn't have it...

kringle77 · #19 09-09-2011, 04:55 PM

To prove my point, do a search on here and see how many players have started put 2 mods in their ampeg 8x10 cabs.

Triad · #20 09-09-2011, 04:57 PM

I understand your point... but since I'm not going to modify an existing cab - don't you think that a tweeter or a mid crossed over pretty high would work better?