Secret weapon--turn those lows down...

[jasper383]

Originally Posted by Russell L

What I'm getting here suggests that the 40Hz I was referring to may not have been the problem. And yet, it was cutting that that made it sound better for me in this case.

Would someone like to tell us what particular frequencies are best for getting the punchiness we all love so. I'm wondering also what the effect is on my LMIII when I cut 40Hz. If I were to, say, cut that knob to 0, what would be the frequency that would be on bottom then? I can't tell by the graph.

On my LMII, I lately have been dialing the bass EQ entirely OFF, then getting a good sounding (to me) mix, then adding just enough bass to add a little presence. That LMII bass knob is EQ'd just a little too low imo. I read this advice here a few months ago, and it really helped. Try it.

If the room isn't boomy, I just set the head flat and turn the two filter knobs to 10 o'clock. Done.

[Passinwind]

Originally Posted by Russell L

I'm wondering also what the effect is on my LMIII when I cut 40Hz. If I were to, say, cut that knob to 0, what would be the frequency that would be on bottom then? I can't tell by the graph.

Can you post the LMIII graph please? On the F1 the low band still has some effect well above 1KHz (looking at the Bass Gear test chart), and quite a lot of effect from ~150Hz down. Manufacturers tend to spec the frequency where greatest boost or cut occurs, not where the effect starts.

[Sundogue]

It would really help if one can listen to frequencies isolated by themselves to really hear what's going on.

Listen to a bi-amped or tri-amped system capable of playing cleanly throughout the entire spectrum. Isolate sub 100Hz frequencies from everything else where you can only hear below that point. That is not mud, nor boomy...at all.

Play an open low B string through a system that can deliver the second harmonic cleanly (62Hz). That is very powerful. Now by itself, without the harmonic content above that in the mid range area, yes it doesn't sound like much on it's own, but it does give some heft and weight to the higher harmonic content that is more audible. The third harmonic of the low B is right about where the problems start creeping in, yet it is also the area most cabs accentuate.

The kick drum really punches in the chest around 90Hz.

When a lot of bass content is present between 100Hz to 200Hz, THAT is the area that is going to be boomy and create mud. One doesn't want to kill that entire region because that's where most of the lower "bass" content is going to be through most rigs. But if one can find specifically what frequency is causing the problem in a given room, cutting just that one will clear everything up. I've found most rooms and bass rigs are VERY incompatible around 125Hz...give or take.

The key to controlling a rig/stage/room problem resonance is finding that frequency area and cutting that back. Simply killing what makes bass "feel" so good doesn't do anything except take the life out of the party. IMO. Yeah, mids make you be heard in the mix...but sub 100Hz is what the booty is shaking to. Take the low end out if you must, but IMO my low end is what moves their low end.

Of course, I'm very anal about having control over my bass and I want it powerful without being a problem to everyone else. So for me having both a Graphic and Parametric EQ (with variable band control) is a necessity, not a luxury. I don't want rooms dictating whether my bass is weak or strong.

[JimmyM]

I just use cabs that cut those lows automatically But I hear you and agree to a large extent, Russell. Sub-bass freqs just don't work for what I want to do, and more often than not, they create mud in the house, especially if it's a reflective house.

[Sundogue]

Originally Posted by JimmyM

I just use cabs that cut those lows automatically But I hear you and agree to a large extent, Russell. Sub-bass freqs just don't work for what I want to do, and more often than not, they create mud in the house, especially if it's a reflective house.

As you said, you don't use cabs that generate it much anyway, so you're safe there.

I have never, not once, had sub 100Hz frequencies create mud or boominess. 100Hz to 200Hz, yeah sure. Quite frequently. THAT is the "boom" region.

With the EQ I have at my disposal, I routinely run into rooms requiring controlling boominess and mud. It ALWAYS runs somewhere in that 100Hz to 200Hz area. Not once has cutting anything below 100Hz done anything to improve the condition.

[R Baer]

Another thing to consider is that many modern bass amps have a baked in EQ curve engineered into to the "knobs at noon" setting. Usually this curve consist of very substantial shelving boost in the low and highs. Some even go as far as to cut the mids as well. So, you always have to keep in mind that there's a good chance your "flat" setting is no where near flat. Rolling off the bass knob may simply be reducing some portion of the built in bass boost and not actually be rolling off your bass response in the same manner as if you had a flat response to start with.

[Sundogue]

Originally Posted by R Baer

Another thing to consider is that many modern bass amps have a baked in EQ curve engineered into to the "knobs at noon" setting. Usually this curve consist of very substantial shelving boost in the low and highs. Some even go as far as to cut the mids as well. So, you always have to keep in mind that there's a good chance your "flat" setting is no where near flat. Rolling off the bass knob may simply be reducing some portion of the built in bass boost and not actually be rolling off your bass response in the same manner as if you had a flat response to start with.

+1. Amp settings can be limiting. Not so much for tone but for controlling those acoustic issues rooms and stages can present. PA's (sufficient ones anyway) have the means to do that. Not everyone plays through a PA though, and some that do still don't have enough control over those pesky boomy frequencies without also killing the low end completely.

[JimmyM]

What it does for me to cut lows below 100hz is cut the mud generated between the bass drum and the bass. Soundmen invariably give the lowest lows to the bass drum up to 60-80hz, depending on the tastes of the soundman and demands of the room. If they're not slotted properly and one steps on the other, all I hear is mud. And while I don't like overbearing 100-200hz, for me, that's where the action is so I always like it a little bit accentuated. Just enough to give me that warmth of low end that you can feel, and no more. I call it "bass you can feel AND hear"

[R Baer]

Originally Posted by Sundogue

+1. Amp settings can be limiting. Not so much for tone but for controlling those acoustic issues rooms and stages can present. PA's (sufficient ones anyway) have the means to do that. Not everyone plays through a PA though, and some that do still don't have enough control over those pesky boomy frequencies without also killing the low end completely.

Very much my point. You can't always trust your eyes when working the EQ knobs on your amp. For example, let's say that your amp has a 9dB broadband low end boost built into the preamp and you turn down the bass knob to read -6dB, you are actually still up +3dB from flat and not down -6dB as you would assume from looking at the marks on your EQ knob.

Also, the frequency center and Q of that built in boost is unlikely to be identical to the frequency center and Q of the EQ's control knob. In essence, you end up notching out some portion of the built in boost, but not all of it. I always think it's important for players to understand what their gear is actually doing, so you have a basis from which you make you adjustments. Kudos to magazines like Bass Gear Magazine for actually showing the frequency response of the amp with all knobs at noon. This is very helpful information when you are in a difficult room and need to make adjustments.

[Sundogue]

Originally Posted by JimmyM

What it does for me to cut lows below 100hz is cut the mud generated between the bass drum and the bass. Soundmen invariably give the lowest lows to the bass drum up to 60-80hz, depending on the tastes of the soundman and demands of the room. If they're not slotted properly and one steps on the other, all I hear is mud. And while I don't like overbearing 100-200hz, for me, that's where the action is so I always like it a little bit accentuated. Just enough to give me that warmth of low end that you can feel, and no more. I call it "bass you can feel AND hear"

I can understand that. Typically when I find myself in that scenario it's helpful to apply technique to the situation as well. The kick drum doesn't sustain much anyway (provided a decent soundman has the right compression and gating applied) and is much more distinct and temporary, than say down-tuned guitars or lower keys on a keyboard. When playing with keyboardists with heavy left hands, playing lower notes with palm muting or more staccato techniques when necessary keeps it from being an issue anyway.

Personally I like to control what I can regarding my bass tone to prevent the hassles from occuring in the first place.

[Sundogue]

Originally Posted by R Baer

Very much my point. You can't always trust your eyes when working the EQ knobs on your amp. For example, let's say that your amp has a 9dB broadband low end boost built into the preamp and you turn down the bass knob to read -6dB, you are actually still up +3dB from flat and not down -6dB as you would assume from looking at the marks on your EQ knob.

Also, the frequency center and Q of that built in boost is unlikely to be identical to the frequency center and Q of the EQ's control knob. In essence, you end up notching out some portion of the built in boost, but not all of it. I always think it's important for players to understand what their gear is actually doing, so you have a basis from which you make you adjustments. Kudos to magazines like Bass Gear Magazine for actually showing the frequency response of the amp with all knobs at noon. This is very helpful information when you are in a difficult room and need to make adjustments.

+ a million. I only use the markings on an amp for visual reference on where the settings are at. I seldom look at it and think, "Oh no, I can't cut it that far!". I adjust it until it works.

[Blankandson]

Just curious about the EQ dials; I always try to look at every show I attend at the settings. (my digital cam goes to 800mm) I see a LOT of dials turned up above noon on local bands or beginning bands. But on the big shows put on by vets, I usually see maybe one dial turned slightly down and the rest are not touched. So rather than try to boost a certain frequency maybe they've learned that they just need to reduce a bad frequency? Does anyone here just turn knobs down - never up?

[will33]

The 40hz shelving is a rolloff, not a steep cliff. It will spill over into the next higher octave. So, when you cut it some, you're likely giving your system a lowend rolloff that begins up around 70-80hz. Ironically, that's about where an Ampeg sealed 810 cab starts it's rolloff. The old GK 400 and 800RB amps lowend filtering starts a rolloff around that frequency as well. Both of those are known for "slotting themselves" in a mix and are good live rigs.

Something I think everyone should try at least once, at least if they have an amp control somewhere in the low mids, is to turn their bass knob all the way left, basically shut it off. Then, get the best tone they can in the mix using the remaining controls. Then go back and bring up the bass knob just enough to fill whatever fullness may be missing. If they use their ears instead of their eyes, I think most people will stop before it gets back to noon.


Not applicable for every style of music out there of course, but it works more often than not. This cleans up the mix, lets you hear the kick drum, is easier on speakers, and makes more efficient use of amp power by not trying to push really low frequencies you really don't need.


Great thread Russell. "Bass" doesn't just mean "bass".

[JimmyM]

I turn knobs wherever I need them to go to get "My Sound (TM)." I used to get all fussy about not wanting to turn knobs up for a while until a wise man on here told me, "If you're getting the sound you like, it doesn't really matter where the knobs are, does it?"

That wise man was one Roger Baer, BTW. Thanks Roger!

[Passinwind]

Originally Posted by will33

The 40hz shelving is a rolloff, not a steep cliff. It will spill over into the next higher octave.

Much higher than that, typically.

[will33]

Originally Posted by Passinwind

Much higher than that, typically.

Probably so.

Good points too about baked in voicings and not starting from "even" in the first place, though, from what I've seen of other folks RTA's, etc. the Markbass and Eden pres are actually pretty close.

[Tim1]

Something I think everyone should try at least once, at least if they have an amp control somewhere in the low mids, is to turn their bass knob all the way left, basically shut it off. Then, get the best tone they can in the mix using the remaining controls. Then go back and bring up the bass knob just enough to fill whatever fullness may be missing. If they use their ears instead of their eyes, I think most people will stop before it gets back to noon.

This is a really excellent piece of advice, Will, and could be suggested to every new bass player as they try to find the right tone in a band mix. It puts into words very simply a practical way to find a decent sound. I wish somebody had told me that years ago, rather than having to take years to discover it for myself.

[Russell L]

It is you guys who have made this a great thread, not me. And I thank you all. There is so much I don't understand, technically, although I have been a gigging musician since 1962. I have studied music more than equipment, you see. And I play well. But, man do I play better when it sounds right!

Sorry, but I don't know how to post that graph from my Markbass book (computer dummy here).

I do understand the idea that just because the knobs are at noon doesn't mean it's really flat. I can tell that by just playing different amps. And, I wonder if Markbass designs their cabs to keep some frequencies at bay while also working to bring out the best from their amps. My Traveler 151Ps sound fine to me, whereas I have heard others say different, for themselves. Inversely, my LMIII head also sounds great through other cabs (like the Ampeg 810).

I have tried turning the low knob off and bringing it back up, and yes, that is a good way to tell just what it does. That works for volume as well. Also, I may as well mention that turning the volume knob down on your bass is another way to affect frequencies that your amp may not be able to. Of course, you have to turn up the volume on the amp to compensate.

I have found more and more that my best sounds from my LMIII come with the knobs at noon and filters off, except for the VLE up some to tame the clack of my fingernails (as an alternative I sometimes leave the VLE off and turn down the high mids some). Again, I don't mean for this to be a Markbass thread. It's just what I'm using the most now, so it's getting the attention.

I'm learning some things here. Thanks again, guys.

[JimmyM]

The LMIII is one of the few amps out there that actually has a near-flat response with all knobs at noon and filters off. The cabs I find quite voiced, but the head is pretty darn flat.

[will33]

Originally Posted by Tim1

This is a really excellent piece of advice, Will, and could be suggested to every new bass player as they try to find the right tone in a band mix. It puts into words very simply a practical way to find a decent sound. I wish somebody had told me that years ago, rather than having to take years to discover it for myself.

Yeah, at a younger age, I was also one of these guys cranking up way too much lowend and wondering why things didn't sound like I wanted them to. Muddy sound at gigs when it sounded cool right up in front of the rig, etc.