Secret weapon--turn those lows down...

[Passinwind]

Originally Posted by Russell L

Sorry, but I don't know how to post that graph from my Markbass book (computer dummy here).

No worries, I'll post a generic example of something I have on hand and have actually designed, built, and measured myself. This bass control would be spec'ed as +/- 10dB at 40 Hz. The graph represents the bass knob being turned all the way down and the other tone controls at noon. As you can see, cut actually starts at around 1K, and at 150Hz the cut is still around 7dB. So cutting "40Hz" in this scenario doesn't necessarily really tell you what the bothersome frequency was.

[Russell L]

Thanks for that, Charlie. I can clearly see the shape of the cut. I wonder what the next lowest freq is to my ears when 40Hz is cut like that? Also, the graphs for the VLE and VPF really confuse me.

[will33]

Originally Posted by Russell L

Thanks for that, Charlie. I can clearly see the shape of the cut. I wonder what the next lowest freq is to my ears when 40Hz is cut like that? Also, the graphs for the VLE and VPF really confuse me.

It's my understanding the VLE rolls off more treble the farther you turn it. Something similair to the tone knob on a bass. That would explain it getting rid of your fingernail click while keeping a full sound.

The VLF I think is your nore typical mid-scoop, "bedroom tone" control, sometimes called "contour" or "enhance" or "shape" in other amps.


I used a guys Markbass 112 combo at a shared gig once bit didn't mess with the controls. It sounded nice however it was set so I just left it alone and didn't think to check it out further. It was covering the stage at a smallish outdoor patio/courtyard type gig where we were all in the PA. It had a nice sort of warm-but-clear, pretty full sound for such a little thing playing outside.

[watspan]

Schroeder 1212L has solved all my "boom in the room" and "can't be heard" issues

[newbold]

I find it easy to set a rig up with the bass all the way off, turn the volume up to desired volume, adjust my mids, and then roll the bass in to taste.

It's amazing now little does the trick.

On my Eden WTDI I engage the 'bass boost' but roll off the bass to about 8 o'clock.

Super tidy, never overdone. I can hear myself at what would have otherwise been way too quiet.

[Passinwind]

Originally Posted by Russell L

Thanks for that, Charlie. I can clearly see the shape of the cut. I wonder what the next lowest freq is to my ears when 40Hz is cut like that?

On a standard tuned 4 string bass 80Hz is often stronger than 40 to begin with. So if it still sounds like a bass at whatever cut setting you're using, probably you're hearing the first overtone (aka second harmonic) pretty well. Note that even a 10dB cut like I graphed still only cuts to "half as loud as it was when set flat" at 40Hz though, more or less, so a big question is how much was actually happening at 40 in the first place.

[murphy]

This is such a great thread.
And I agree with you guys.

[tevitag]

Great post Russell L! I can completely relate to it, both with a Fender Rumble 100 and a new Markbass LM Tube with 102 Traveler, in a room we play once a month. The low mid is like a magic knob. I kept getting 'turn the bass down' complaints and so rolled off the low a bit and boosted the low mid and everyone loved the bass player again.

[R Baer]

Originally Posted by Blankandson

Just curious about the EQ dials; I always try to look at every show I attend at the settings. (my digital cam goes to 800mm) I see a LOT of dials turned up above noon on local bands or beginning bands. But on the big shows put on by vets, I usually see maybe one dial turned slightly down and the rest are not touched. So rather than try to boost a certain frequency maybe they've learned that they just need to reduce a bad frequency? Does anyone here just turn knobs down - never up?

There's a tendency by players without years of EQ experience to solve everything by boosting EQ. Not enough bass? Turn it up Too much bass? Turn up the treble. Hmm, now it sounds too scooped in the mids, well... turn those up too! What helped me more than anything was the years spent in recording studios paying close attention to the engineer's methods of slotting all the instruments into their own sonic space. This is a very important concept and one that most players tend to forget as soon as they hit the stage.

If everyone on stage is simply boosting to be heard, you end up with all the instruments fighting for space and a mix that sounds like mush. This almost always results in the dreaded "volume wars" onstage. You can't hear your bass, so you turn up. Now the guitarist can't hear himself, so he turns up. This of course results in the drummer having to hit much harder. At this point, kiss any chance at dynamics goodbye. Of course the issue was never volume in the first place. The issue was everyone stepping on each other's sonic toes. Once everyone learns to start tailoring their sound to make room for the other instruments, you suddenly have a mix that starts to resemble your studio tracks. The pro's with years of experience understand this.

For a great example, check out this clip. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nzBC...eature=related
Jeff Berlin's tone in this mix is very focused and has very little in the way of a wide dynamic range, but listen to the way it sits in the mix. With that many players onstage, Jeff had to find a tone that would let him be heard without stepping on everyone's toes and I think he just nailed it. The trick here is to start treating your live sound like a FOH engineer and not just the bass player.

[electracoyote]

I can think of a couple of rooms and stages where I had to kill off some low end in order to get decent tone.

[Calaverasgrande]

I was always playing through low power amps when I started out. So I was doing the all mids thing forever ago. Well that and Dave Sims is a huge influence!
But when I moved up to bigger amps I revelled in the ability to be bombastic with low end.
It took me a long time to get the bass knob below 10!

[jasper383]

Originally Posted by R Baer

For a great example, check out this clip. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nzBC...eature=related
Jeff Berlin's tone in this mix is very focused and has very little in the way of a wide dynamic range, but listen to the way it sits in the mix. With that many players onstage, Jeff had to find a tone that would let him be heard without stepping on everyone's toes and I think he just nailed it. The trick here is to start treating your live sound like a FOH engineer and not just the bass player.

He is so perfect in that mix.

[BuffaloBass]

That was a nicely done tune!

[obimark]

Yeah, I have NEVER, Ever boosted the bass freq on either my TH 500 or LMIII past Noon, an dmany times cut it back to 10. And guess what it still has PLENTY of bass. Guess my P-Bass is naturally throwing out TONS of lowend.

Good tip that takes a while to learn for many.

[tombowlus]

Chris Fitzgerald discussed how important high pass filtering has been to his live tone back in his "In the Doghouse" column from issue #7.

[dmrogers]

I have never liked that super low, boomy sound. I like a solid, tight sound. Not hi-fi, just cutting and solid.

I am not a flashy player, I try to support the song/music. With that said, I get a lot of complements on my "killer rig". Granted I do have good equipment, but I feel that a lot of it is the mix. You can actually hear the bass notes. To quote Dave Funk "the notes project, they are not just rolling around on the floor"!

Around these parts, so many of the bass players just dime the bass control, I guess because they are thinking "I play bass". Then they complain because the run out of headroom and/or they can't hear their instrument.

My latest tool in tone quest is the Fdeck HPF Series 3. A good, useful tool to have.

[Quackhead]

I got complaints from a former (note the "former") band because they thought my sound was thin onstage, when it was actually just what was needed to cut through the mix. They were used to guys who had a big, boomy tone onstage, but when you got out into the audience, the bass was mush and hard to hear. I stuck to my guns and told them to find another bassist.

[bgavin]

A decent wireless that allows you to hear your bass from the audience position is very worthwhile.
For most rigs, the on-axis tone at the audience position is VERY different from off-axis.
Walking the audience position will reveal holes and hot spots.

At the various clubs in my area with full PA support, the stage rig cannot be heard at all.
They are mic'ed or DI, but function mostly as a stage monitor.

[seang15]

So you are saying this would go for dub and reggae too? I would think it depends on the music.

[Sundogue]

Originally Posted by dmrogers

I have never liked that super low, boomy sound. I like a solid, tight sound. Not hi-fi, just cutting and solid.

Around these parts, so many of the bass players just dime the bass control, I guess because they are thinking "I play bass". Then they complain because the run out of headroom and/or they can't hear their instrument.

My latest tool in tone quest is the Fdeck HPF Series 3. A good, useful tool to have.

There is a huge difference between bass players that dime the "bass" tone control through most commercial cabs and those of us who have cabs capable of delivering clean sub 100Hz low end, AND know how to use an EQ properly.

I would suspect many (certainly not all) bass players have never even heard true, clean sub 100Hz low end through their rig and therefore do not care for "that" sound through most conventional rigs simply because instead of delivering those lows cleanly, it really does sound like mush. So in that regard I can understand the sentiments.

And +1 to the Fdeck HPF Pre...gotta get me one of those, even though I have a lot of EQ tools at my disposal. Being able to filter out 35Hz on down completely out of my rig would be fabulous, because I have a lot of strong sub 100Hz content above that.