Secret weapon--turn those lows down...

[daveman50]

Originally Posted by R Baer

Not enough bass? Turn it up Too much bass? Turn up the treble. Hmm, now it sounds too scooped in the mids, well... turn those up too!

Also varies from bass to bass. My little Hofner needs more bass cut than anything else in the stable.

[R Baer]

Originally Posted by seang15

So you are saying this would go for dub and reggae too? I would think it depends on the music.

Boosting in the 30Hz and 40Hz range puts a tremendous strain on your cabinets drivers, so I would recommend trying just a very small bass boost and then dialing back your upper mids and treble. IMO, getting a good dub sound isn't so much about cranking the lows as it is about reducing the upper mids and treble content. True that a lot of hip hop and rap deals with some very low subsonic stuff, but for that type of music you really need to leave the heavy lifting to the PA subs and keep your onstage sound a little more focused. I'm a big fan of boosting bass around the 80Hz range and not in the 30Hz and 40Hz range.

[Sartori]

An EQ control for all the lows that's centered at 40hz seems awfully... well... low. I'm not sure how useful that would be except for using it to cut, as the OP does, as most bass cabs can't really produce much at that frequency.

In most of the bands I've been in, those super lows haven't really been something I've needed in my sound, as I don't like to be fighting with the kick drum over frequencies.

I do have a bit more low end in my sound than I used to, but only because the musical context I play in is somewhat different and I often play through a cab now that's a bit clearer down in that territory.

[Chef]

Yes!
Cutting treble and mids is a great way to "add bass" without muffing your tone into sub-blubber.

This original post here hits a great concept.
Reduce low bass to tighten up sloppy rooms and make everything work better.

You really don't need much of anything below 60-80hz, IMO.
IMO, that just eats/wastes power, muggles up your tone in most rooms...
Many amps do a poor job of high pass filtering, adding to this.

TB'er francis deck (fdeck) makes several neat, adjustable, affordable high pass filters that really are great tools.
These allow all frequencies higher than a cutoff point thru the filter, trimming all that wobbly sub-bass

I use one all the time now, it's adjustable from 35hz to 125hz.
I set my rig up, twist til I hear it start to subtract sub bass, and leave it.
In some rooms, it stays at 35hz. In most rooms, I end up at 50-60hz.
You do not feel this loss at all, except that your rig seems to have a little more headroom, seems tighter overall in a positive way, and stays cleaner longer.

Originally Posted by R Baer

Boosting in the 30Hz and 40Hz range puts a tremendous strain on your cabinets drivers, so I would recommend trying just a very small bass boost and then dialing back your upper mids and treble. IMO, getting a good dub sound isn't so much about cranking the lows as it is about reducing the upper mids and treble content. True that a lot of hip hop and rap deals with some very low subsonic stuff, but for that type of music you really need to leave the heavy lifting to the PA subs and keep your onstage sound a little more focused. I'm a big fan of boosting bass around the 80Hz range and not in the 30Hz and 40Hz range.

[bumperbass]

I have one of FDeck's HPF's. I don't know how I've managed to play for 40+ years without it. This type of circuit should be standard equipment in bass heads. My guess is, it's not because it would add a layer of confusion for a lot of non-techies. It's very easy to use. I adjust mine just like Chef does. I hit my low string (E in my case) and turn it up from 35Hz until I notice a lack of mud and just leave it there. My E string sounds just like my other strings now. I can actually hammer that string with 1/4 or 1/8th notes, as the song may dictate, and I get an 'E' without all the sub garbage. Mine is plugged into my Sansamp effects loop (post tone controls/pre output level). I've found that even my DI to the FOH is also cleaner. It's the best $108 I've ever spent.
I've played with it for a few gigs now and have found that I can slightly boost the bass (like from 12 o'clock to 12:30 or 1 o'clock) and then nudge the frequency control up a bit to act sort of like a 'little more bass but no boom' kind of effect.
This box could also be useful on the send/return of a kick drum mic channel or on the entire mixer output to prevent that sub-bass thump, although I haven't tried it in this manner.

[enjoi1018]

I'm only 23 (so I know a lot of you guys have been playing longer than I've been alive, LOL), but I've really come to appreciate how much all of the above works. I've got a LMIII, and its got the lows and low mids down to about 11, with the two highs up to about 1. VLE barely on, VPF at about 2-2:30. I also have an MXR 10 band EQ in the loop.

I've dialed in a great sound in my room. If it's possible, I'll turn every knob to retain that tone in a band setting and allowing it to sit in the mix.

Through all of the different times and setting in the past where I thought I had found my sound, one thing was the same: the low was either way down, or down like it is now. I can't EVER see a reason to turn the lows past noon. I'm serious, I don't know how it could ever happen.

Cheers for awesome info, and SUB'd.

[Russell L]

Originally Posted by enjoi1018

I'm only 23 (so I know a lot of you guys have been playing longer than I've been alive, LOL), but I've really come to appreciate how much all of the above works. I've got a LMIII, and its got the lows and low mids down to about 11, with the two highs up to about 1. VLE barely on, VPF at about 2-2:30. I also have an MXR 10 band EQ in the loop.

I've dialed in a great sound in my room. If it's possible, I'll turn every knob to retain that tone in a band setting and allowing it to sit in the mix.

Through all of the different times and setting in the past where I thought I had found my sound, one thing was the same: the low was either way down, or down like it is now. I can't EVER see a reason to turn the lows past noon. I'm serious, I don't know how it could ever happen.

Cheers for awesome info, and SUB'd.

Pal, that VPF at 2-2:30 adds a LOT of bottom to your sound, and cuts a lot of mids. I've tried using that control in a band mix, but it just makes my sound disappear. I did make it work once on a quiet ballade, though. Also, my regular MIA Jazz Bass can handle it better than my P/J, especially when on the P pickup.

Now notice this: last night at home I was experimenting with the low and low mid knobs. It seemed to my ears that when I turned the low knob down (to, say, 10:30-11:00), not only did it drop out some of the sub lows, but also another frequency seemed to stand out, as if boosted. I haven't looked at the graph yet (I'll do that in a bit---at work right now), but I don't recall seeing where any frequency(s) go up when the lows go down. It may be that it's an auditory illusion. When the super low goes down my ear may just concentrate, or rather notice, another frequency more. I am reminded, though, that it was this very thing that seemed to make my sound more clear the other night at the jam. Adding a tad of low mids (even at 360Hz on my LMIII) made it even clearer.

I agree with others here that it's the 80-100Hz range that I like to mess with. I used to move the 100Hz slider all the time on my Trace Elliot. Seemed like that was where the punch was. 50Hz stayed neutral. Yet, this LMIII is amazing at what sounds it makes. I declare if you can't just leave everything "flat," no filters, just turn it on, plug in and play. I always know that that will work, for starters. Then, it's very little knob twisting needed.

Guys, my thanks again for making this a very informative thread. Great stuff here. Hope ya all had a good Thanksgiving.

[EDIT: my Saturday night gig got cancelled, so now I gotta wait to experiment onstage for a couple of weeks, dang it!).

[alexclaber]

The reason turning your lows down can help is because you're reducing driver excursion - and the effect is particularly dramatic if it brings your drivers back from exceeding Xmax (the point where %THD shoots up and your tone falls apart). If your drivers have enough volume displacement to do what you want without being stressed then you won't need to turn down the lows to sort out your tone - turning down your lows sometimes improves your tone through removing excess lows but more often it's actually cleaning up your midrange and treble and improving your transient response.

[Russell L]

Originally Posted by alexclaber

The reason turning your lows down can help is because you're reducing driver excursion - and the effect is particularly dramatic if it brings your drivers back from exceeding Xmax (the point where %THD shoots up and your tone falls apart). If your drivers have enough volume displacement to do what you want without being stressed then you won't need to turn down the lows to sort out your tone - turning down your lows sometimes improves your tone through removing excess lows but more often it's actually cleaning up your midrange and treble and improving your transient response.

Thanks, Alex. I hope we can do some business in a few months.

[iiipopes]

Originally Posted by bumperbass

I have one of FDeck's HPF's. I don't know how I've managed to play for 40+ years without it. This type of circuit should be standard equipment in bass heads. My guess is, it's not because it would add a layer of confusion for a lot of non-techies. It's very easy to use. I adjust mine just like Chef does. I hit my low string (E in my case) and turn it up from 35Hz until I notice a lack of mud and just leave it there. My E string sounds just like my other strings now. I can actually hammer that string with 1/4 or 1/8th notes, as the song may dictate, and I get an 'E' without all the sub garbage. Mine is plugged into my Sansamp effects loop (post tone controls/pre output level). I've found that even my DI to the FOH is also cleaner. It's the best $108 I've ever spent.
I've played with it for a few gigs now and have found that I can slightly boost the bass (like from 12 o'clock to 12:30 or 1 o'clock) and then nudge the frequency control up a bit to act sort of like a 'little more bass but no boom' kind of effect.
This box could also be useful on the send/return of a kick drum mic channel or on the entire mixer output to prevent that sub-bass thump, although I haven't tried it in this manner.

Indeed!

I've been turning down the bass knob since I started playing in at summer band camp in 1976.

This year I took over again as bass player for a band I used to play with twenty years ago. We had a wedding gig this summer in a notoriously boomy venue. During setup, all the comments were how untamed and boomy the bass was. I pointed my speaker at an open window, lowered the bass knob, and had clean, defined, supporting bass for the gig with nary a trace of boominess.

[Chef]

Hey Alex;

While this may be true in terms of what the cab/speaker can/can't do, I still disagree in some measure.

IME, it's sometimes the case that info under that 50-80hz range can do bad things in some rooms. Boom, blur, smear, loss of definition...call it what you will.

And in fact, in some measure, I find using something like the fdeck hpf3 -more- helpful with "super cabs with higher x-max speakers," especially when those cabs are tuned super low as, for an example, some of the fF line are.

just my devalued .02, ymmv, your experiences may vary, etc.

Originally Posted by alexclaber

The reason turning your lows down can help is because you're reducing driver excursion - and the effect is particularly dramatic if it brings your drivers back from exceeding Xmax (the point where %THD shoots up and your tone falls apart). If your drivers have enough volume displacement to do what you want without being stressed then you won't need to turn down the lows to sort out your tone - turning down your lows sometimes improves your tone through removing excess lows but more often it's actually cleaning up your midrange and treble and improving your transient response.

[enjoi1018]

Originally Posted by Russell L

Pal, that VPF at 2-2:30 adds a LOT of bottom to your sound, and cuts a lot of mids. I've tried using that control in a band mix, but it just makes my sound disappear. I did make it work once on a quiet ballade, though. Also, my regular MIA Jazz Bass can handle it better than my P/J, especially when on the P pickup.

Yessir; indeed it does! I start with the filters, get them around what I think i'm shooting for, then make smaller, general adjustments. After that's REALLY close, I go to the MXR 2-band graphic EQ to flex each individual amp to make then work flawlessly together (I've got a small custom amp atop and slaved to the LMIII).

The result (again, in the safety of my bedroom ) is unbelievably awesome.

My highs are clear with a nice full ring, and my lows are earth shattering without getting muddy.

One thing to mention: before I stumbled on this thread, I found a article online that had Mike Gordon's EQ setting shown from a show. On both of his multi-band parametric EQs, he had the lowest band turned as low as it would go, with it also being cut as much as possible.

On my MXR, I have both 31hz sliders all the way off. I figure, you can't hear it anyway, the next slider is 62 so I'm not greatly affecting a huge part of the spectrum, and Gordo inspires... i'll follow a little bit!

All in all, great results.

[Passinwind]

Originally Posted by Sartori

An EQ control for all the lows that's centered at 40hz seems awfully... well... low.

At first blush it seems crazy, but as usual, just depends.

Take a look at the graph I posted. Would you call that response centered at 40Hz?

Say you make the shelving bass control +/- 10dB at 100 Hz, and dime the control. Now everything from 100 down is maxed. Is that really going to be better? Tradeoffs, always tradeoffs.

[Russell L]

Originally Posted by Passinwind

At first blush it seems crazy, but as usual, just depends.

Take a look at the graph I posted. Would you call that response centered at 40Hz?

Say you make the shelving bass control +/- 10dB at 100 Hz, and dime the control. Now everything from 100 down is maxed. Is that really going to be better? Tradeoffs, always tradeoffs.

It's what makes controls that have a center mysterious to me, in as far as what they actually send out. Seeing a graph helps (I think?), but it's a bit tricky for me to understand what other frequencies are involved, other than the center one. I'm thinking it's like the center frequency drags along some other adjacent frequencies as well. Is that right? And the term "shelving" is something else I still don't understand.

Heh, see? For so long I just played without knowing what was happening. But, for the past couple of years I've been trying to understand. I think part of the stimulus for making me want to know more is when I bought my first Markbass amp back in 2008 (CMD 121H combo). The sound was quite different from my old Trace Ellit GP7 SM 115 combo. So, I began experimenting and studying some. The first thing was to stop cutting the mids so much.

However, one of the best tools I've had for learning has been this forum, which means you folks. Just when I've needed to understand my equipment more, ya'll have been a great help. Thanks.

[Russell L]

Say, I don't know how that little yawning face got at the top of my last post. Didn't mean to put it there myself.

[Passinwind]

Originally Posted by Russell L

It's what makes controls that have a center mysterious to me, in as far as what they actually send out. Seeing a graph helps (I think?), but it's a bit tricky for me to understand what other frequencies are involved, other than the center one. I'm thinking it's like the center frequency drags along some other adjacent frequencies as well. Is that right? And the term "shelving" is something else I still don't understand.

Take a look at the Amps FAQ , section 2.7.3, for a graphic on shelving EQ and other common EQ configs.

Do you have any recording software? Many versions have graphical representation of EQ curves that make it a lot easier to see how adjacent bands interact and how many other frequencies are affected than just the ones you may be expecting.

[R Baer]

Originally Posted by Russell L

It's what makes controls that have a center mysterious to me, in as far as what they actually send out. Seeing a graph helps (I think?), but it's a bit tricky for me to understand what other frequencies are involved, other than the center one. I'm thinking it's like the center frequency drags along some other adjacent frequencies as well. Is that right? And the term "shelving" is something else I still don't understand.

I made up a few simple diagrams that should help you understand the difference between peak and shelving EQ a little better. The top diagram represents a bass shelving EQ filter with a 6dB boost at 80Hz. Notice how the response below the boost frequency resembles a "shelf", in which you are boosting all frequencies on one side of the EQ point. This is typical of the bass control on most bass amps.



If this was a treble control, the shelf would simply go the other way and boost everything above the EQ point.



The bottom diagram illustrates a peak EQ filter with a 6dB boost centered at 80Hz. Rather than boosting everything below 80Hz, as in a shelving filter, the peak filter has a bell shape and is boosting frequencies on either side of the center frequency. The width of the bell is referred to as the bandwidth, or "Q". On a semi-paremtric EQ (found on some bass amp mid controls), you have control over the frequency and amount of boost, but not the bandwidth. On a fully parametric EQ however, you would also have another control for the bandwidth, which allows you to make the Q wider (solid line), or more narrow (dotted line). Youv'e probably heard the term notch filter before and that just refers to a peak EQ filter with and extremely narrow bandwidth. Notch filters are very useful, for example, on acoustic instruments for reducing a small band a frequencies where the instrument might be prone to feedback.

[Russell L]

Originally Posted by R Baer

I made up a few simple diagrams that should help you understand the difference between peak and shelving EQ a little better. The top diagram represents a bass shelving EQ filter with a 6dB boost at 80Hz. Notice how the response below the boost frequency resembles a "shelf", in which you are boosting all frequencies on one side of the EQ point. This is typical of the bass control on most bass amps.



If this was a treble control, the shelf would simply go the other way and boost everything above the EQ point.



The bottom diagram illustrates a peak EQ filter with a 6dB boost centered at 80Hz. Rather than boosting everything below 80Hz, as in a shelving filter, the peak filter has a bell shape and is boosting frequencies on either side of the center frequency. The width of the bell is the bandwidth, or "Q". On a semi-paremtric EQ (found on some bass amp mid controls), you have control over the frequency and amount of boost, but not the bandwidth. On a fully parametric EQ (more common on studio gear) however, you would also have another control for the bandwidth, which allows you to make the Q wider (solid line), or more narrow (dotted line). Youv'e probably heard the term notch filter before and that just refers to a peak EQ filter with and extremely narrow bandwidth. Notch filters are very useful, for example, on acoustic instruments for reducing a small band a frequencies where the instrument might be prone to feedback.

Very good explanation there, my friend. Just what I needed to know. Now I understand so much more. I didn't realize that frequencies all above or below the center would be raised or lowered in that way. I don't think I woulda thought of it myself.

Thanks a lot!

[daveman50]

Originally Posted by bumperbass

I have one of FDeck's HPF's. <snip> This box could also be useful <snip> on the entire mixer output to prevent that sub-bass thump, although I haven't tried it in this manner.

I'm going to try this with our powered mixer. Not to control the kick drum (we often don't mic it in a small room) but for general P.A. mud control, low thumps that come up through the mic stands, etc.

[R Baer]

Originally Posted by Russell L

Very good explanation there, my friend. Just what I needed to know. Now I understand so much more. I didn't realize that frequencies all above or below the center would be raised or lowered in that way. I don't think I woulda thought of it myself.

Thanks a lot!

No problem. It's not the easiest concept to wrap your head around and lots of bassist don't really understand what is actually happening when they are using their EQ. Once you grasp these concepts and train your ear enough to be able to pick out what various frequencies sound like and how they affect your overall tone, then tweaking your amp in any situation becomes a very easy thing to do.