Seek advice sorting out 2 rigs: 4x10 and 2x10 different efficiencies w/ 2x10 "louder"

[HolmeBass]

I am needing to borrow an 8 ohm Hartke HyDrive 4x10 to cover two gigs back-to-back on August 12th, with two different bands at two different venues. The first venue is a pretty big outdoor covered amphitheater (probably about 1K to 3K people!), the second an indoor theater (tops around 800, hopefully w/ 400-500 attending). Here are the Hartke specs:

Hartke HyDrive HX-410, 8 Ohms, sensitivity of 99 db @ 1W/1M

Since I'll only have between 1/2 hour, maybe 1 hr tops between the two gigs I need to have rigs set up and sound checked at both venues before I start playing. I am looking for advice on which rig/gig to use the Hartke for. I normally run either:

- Eden Metro (D210XLT combo, 8 Ohms, sensitivity listed as 103 db @ 1W/1M) w/ Genz Benz 212T-ub 4 Ohm box, sensitivity 102 db @ 1W/1M - This rig has always been my big stage festival rig, and the blend between the two cabinets it perfect for me, the difference in impedance and sensitivity between the two cabs are complimentary, with the slightly louder 212 on the bottom the two cabs blend very nicely to my ears, and just by luck of the draw there are no bad phasing issues between the two cabinets.

- Genz Benz 212T-UB w/ Mesa M2000 Basis - This rig handles most of my gigs and is really great, the Mesa matches the Genz perfectly at a 600W @ 4 Ohms sweet spot.

I can't do either show with the Metro alone, just not enough speakers/juice for either gig. So the options are:

A) Do the second theater gig with the Mesa/GB rig, and run the Hartke 4x10 with the Metro for the first gig

OR

B) Do the first gig with my proven festival rig and use the Hartke with the Mesa for the second gig

The advice I seek surrounds potential problems with either option-

"Option A" leaves me worried about pairing the Hartke and the Metro- they're both 8 Ohm cabs but their rated sensitivities are 4 db different with the 2x10 box supposedly louder. I've had gigs where pairing the Metro with a much quieter cabinet has proven fruitless- I can't turn it up loud enough for the 2nd cab to add much of anything without getting the 2x10 just sort of annoyingly blaring and over-loaded. But in those cases the 2nd cab was either a 1x18 or a 1x15, not a 4x10, so maybe it could work?

"Option B" leaves me worried about the theater gig: the Mesa will only put about 300 watts out into the Hartke, and although I've never had to turn the Mesa up for any gig so far, I'm worried about how it might sound if I have to crank it to carry the gig with an 8 Ohm cab. This band is a Grateful Dead cover band with two fairly loud guitars, two drummers, keys, and a pretty big overall sound.

So which option is less risky?

[HolmeBass]

Nothing?? Too complicated for people to chime in on? I figured at least someone would mention Eden's sensitivity specs being inflated, or chime in on whether 300 solid state watts through a 4x10 would be sufficient for the Grateful Dead cover band gig. Come on TB, help me out!

[Selta]

You're playing two rather nice gigs and they don't have enough PA for bass?

[BassmanPaul]

Don't mix a 4x10 with ANY lesser cabinet of the same impedance. You'll be feeding the 2x10 with the same power as the 4x10. To work correctly the 2x10 has to be twice the impedance of the 4x10.

[Marko5657]

If you suspect the stage volume will be such that your “big stage festival rig” won’t cut it, you probably need to rent a suitable rig.

Can ya get some in the monitor(s) to help out?

[HolmeBass]

Originally Posted by Ray Salamon

You're playing two rather nice gigs and they don't have enough PA for bass?

The rigs are just for me and my monitoring, I fully expect the PA to handle FOH. I do not like to add bass to my monitor mix b/c it muddies up everything else coming through- the keys, acoustic guitar, and vocals, that I need for my cues.

[HolmeBass]

Originally Posted by Marko5657

If you suspect the stage volume will be such that your “big stage festival rig” won’t cut it, you probably need to rent a suitable rig.

Can ya get some in the monitor(s) to help out?

Renting rigs is tough around here for some reason, I've tried to price and check into in the past and there are not many options at all. For the outdoor thing, it's "Fridays After Five" so the PA budget is not huge, the monitors are not going to handle bass very well at all. I'll be lucky if they can handle a bit of keys, the acoustic guitar, and the vocals.

The theater gig does have a nice PA and good monitors, but that band has a lot of demands on the monitor situation too.

So it seems likely that I'll use my rig for the outdoor show, and the Hartke for the theater gig and just count on adding bass to the monitors if the Mesa's 300 watts aren't cutting it.

[HolmeBass]

Originally Posted by BassmanPaul

Don't mix a 4x10 with ANY lesser cabinet of the same impedance. You'll be feeding the 2x10 with the same power as the 4x10. To work correctly the 2x10 has to be twice the impedance of the 4x10.

Yeah, I think this is the call. Thanks for the input guys. I'll go with more unknowns at the show with better monitor support, and not mix the unknown 4x10 with anything else, so that I can try to drive it as well as possible with my amp.

[HolmeBass]

If anyone has a line on good bass amp rentals in the central VA area- Charlottesville, Richmond, Lynchburg, or Harrisonburg, please let me know.

I know that the local theater here (not the one I'm playing) had Aimee Mann playing and they had a rider for an Ampeg bass rig for the bassist and the stage manager *could not* find a rental rig anywhere. She reached out to the bass community here in town (Charlottesville) and through Facebook her contact found a guy in Virginia Beach who would rent her a suitable rig!! That's a 3.5 hr drive just to pick it up, and she had to rent it from some private dude. That's just crazy.

In the past I've seen an advert for a place in DC, but they didn't have anything nice. The closest place that really seemed to advertise renting decent bass rigs was way down in Nashville, TN, about a 12 hour drive away. Ridiculous. So if anyone has a line on bass rig rentals in Central VA, please post here or PM me. Thanks.

[BigOldHarry]

Originally Posted by BassmanPaul

Don't mix a 4x10 with ANY lesser cabinet of the same impedance. You'll be feeding the 2x10 with the same power as the 4x10. To work correctly the 2x10 has to be twice the impedance of the 4x10.

And yet I've done this with my Epifani 4x10 & 2x10 (both 8 ohm) and it sounded great.

[HolmeBass]

Thanks Harry- I think that's because the 4x10 is probably a bit louder than the 2x10. In my mix scenario I'm really worried that the 2x10 will be too much louder than the 4x10, so the 4x10 won't be "brought to bear" so to speak.

I don't agree with the entire point that BassmanPaul asserted, that each 10" speaker has to get the same power (which is what happens when the 2x10 has twice the impedance of the 4x10). I'm usually much more inclined to make sure each cabinet gets the same power, provided there isn't a drastic mis-match in sensitivities.

The 4 Ohm Genz 212UB just happens to work really well with the 8 Ohm 2x10 (the Metro's internal speaker load) and I think that is just extremely fortuitous. The 2x12 is louder, but not so much so that the 2x10 doesn't contribute significantly, and since it's closer to my ears (on top of the stack) it really blends well from my perspective. That's probably the same kind of winning combination you get with your Epi's Harry? Do you run the 2x10 on top? (If not then you're enjoying some other sort of happiness, which is cool- if it works for you and your band then it works.)

[BassmanPaul]

If you are running a 4x10 with a lesser cabinet that one should always be on top closer to your ears. That way whether it be a 2x10, 1x15 or whatever you will be able to hear sounds of distress from it. The other way round those cries would be drowned out by the bigger cabinet.

[BassmanPaul]

Originally Posted by HolmeBass

I don't agree with the entire point that BassmanPaul asserted, that each 10" speaker has to get the same power (which is what happens when the 2x10 has twice the impedance of the 4x10). I'm usually much more inclined to make sure each cabinet gets the same power, provided there isn't a drastic mis-match in sensitivities.

This approach means that the drivers in the 2x10 cabinet are doing twice the work of the more able 4x10. Forget sensitivities. Most of the quoted figures a more imagination than fact.

[HolmeBass]

Yes, but as long as the wattage rating for the 2x10 isn't being exceeded, that cabinet should operate properly. The fact that the 10's in the 4x10 aren't getting nearly the same power as those in the 2x10 doesn't really have an effect.

I also have to disagree with "forget sensitivities". While the manufacturers don't follow a standard, those specs do allow rough comparisons of expected cabinet volume. I have found the hard way that matching the efficient Eden 2x10 (published efficiency 103 db @ 1W/1M) with very inefficient SWR Big Ben (IRC efficiency of 96?) did not work out at all- the Big Ben was too quite to be heard at all with the 2x10 running.

[BassmanPaul]

Originally Posted by BigOldHarry

And yet I've done this with my Epifani 4x10 & 2x10 (both 8 ohm) and it sounded great.

Yes I know BUT the 2x10 will always be the weakest link in the system. Just the same as mixing a 4x10 with a 1x15 or 1x18. The single cone will be in danger every time you get loud.