sensitivity or frequency response for cabs?

[blakelock]

hi all,
why isn't it common to find frequency response or sensitivity data for all these great bass cabinets? these specs are usually available for high-end home entertainment speakers and are certainly useful for musicians concerned about their tone. if nothing else, it would at least give you an idea how low in frequency a cab could go or if one cab is generally louder or quieter than another. this seems especially important for checking if smaller cabinets can handle the deep.

cheers,
blakelock

[Jim Nazium]

I suspect that most manufacturers want to provide as little as possible in the way of objective, scientific data, because some of it it might not look very good. What's easier, to claim that a speaker has flat response, low cabinet resonance, high sensitivity etc., or to claim that it has "magic tone"?

[BassIan]

A well-generated frequency response plot will also convey sensitivity in a much better way than the 100db/1W/1m specs that are common in this industry.

If manufacturers would design cabinets properly, then publish data on frequency and phase response, educated consumers would have a lot more to go on when making purchasing decisions. This could also go a long way to educating consumers about what their preferences actually mean in terms of response. Lots of people who like "deep" "punchy" bass don't realize that this doesn't happen down at 30-50 hz.

Of course, smaller cabinets handling the deep also brings power handling and "right tool for the job" elements into the mix.

In actuality, it isn't common because nobody does it, the average consumer wouldn't know how to interpret the data, and it costs money. Plus, it would expose just how distorted and poor the response of many mainstream cabinets can be. This exposure would fly in the face of all the carefully designed ads that proclaim "studio monitor on steroids" and "high-sensitivity with unlimited low-end extension in a 25lb box". It's too bad, because knowing the parameters behind your favourite tone could make selecting gear a whole lot easier.

[BassIan]

Originally Posted by Jim Nazium

I suspect that most manufacturers want to provide as little as possible in the way of objective, scientific data, because some of it it might not look very good. What's easier, to claim that a speaker has flat response, low cabinet resonance, high sensitivity etc., or to claim that it has "magic tone"?

The sad part here is that most people do not prefer cabinets that even approach flat response. So, they don't know what to pursue when looking for new equipment.

[dubcut]

Simple reason, I will relay it metaphorically. Ever compare a 100 watt amp to a 40 watt amp only to be surprised the smaller amp ATE the larger one for breakfast? On paper, a behringer 100 watt head out-does a mesa 40 watt...But we KNOW better...

NUMBERS are NUMBERS. They have no meaning. If you rate a cabinet by frequency resonse, company A will go within 3db on their rating,company b will go flat-to freq point, and company c will go AT 3db or even 6db down on their rating.

Also, if you include frequency response, you have to figure you are dealing with te GENERAL public, not an audiophile or sound engineer. For instance, if Iwere to tell you most guitar amps are designed to CUT hi's and lows, within the fequecy range that actually AFFECTS the signal, Somebody WONT buy it when they would have had they not known that. But it is true.



If you really want to know what a cab does, Get t/s parameters and MODEL it !!! Then you see reality, not what they TELL you reality is...

[BassIan]

Originally Posted by dubcut

Simple reason, I will relay it metaphorically. Ever compare a 100 watt amp to a 40 watt amp only to be surprised the smaller amp ATE the larger one for breakfast? On paper, a behringer 100 watt head out-does a mesa 40 watt...But we KNOW better...

NUMBERS are NUMBERS. They have no meaning. If you rate a cabinet by frequency resonse, company A will go within 3db on their rating,company b will go flat-to freq point, and company c will go AT 3db or even 6db down on their rating.

Also, if you include frequency response, you have to figure you are dealing with te GENERAL public, not an audiophile or sound engineer. For instance, if Iwere to tell you most guitar amps are designed to CUT hi's and lows, within the fequecy range that actually AFFECTS the signal, Somebody WONT buy it when they would have had they not known that. But it is true.



If you really want to know what a cab does, Get t/s parameters and MODEL it !!! Then you see reality, not what they TELL you reality is...

Numbers have a lot more meaning than subjective terminology. A significant factor that robs their meaning is the fabricated marketing numbers that are being called "Tech Specs".

Your comment here corroborates the case that there are no meaningful specifications within this industry, barring a few exceptions (Bill Fitzmaurice's plots being a primary example).

The other factor is that there is no meaningful *understanding* of the data if it were available. Accurate data has to exist, but if nobody bothers to understand its meaning and relationship to reality, the data is useless.

[blakelock]

oh boy. these are great responses and i think they're probably pretty much all correct. it's a bit frustrating though (for obvious reasons). and also still surprising. you can find frequency response curves for home stereo speakers costing a fraction of what we'll pay for a mid-range bass speaker cab. i've even seen a few posts from people looking for amps that don't "color" their sound. a flat response is what they're looking for.

anyway, i guess we're left with "try it all out and buy what your ears like." which isn't too bad. it gives us plenty of toys to play with. it is all about the journey anyway, right?

[kurotenshi]

Originally Posted by dubcut

Also, if you include frequency response, you have to figure you are dealing with te GENERAL public, not an audiophile or sound engineer.

So why do I need to be a computer nerd in order to translate the CPU code into CPU frequency? Or why do I need to know what really 1080p means in order to buy a TV? (I could go on and on). That sounds A LOT like the kind of excuse a manufacture would use.
If you want to make an educated buy you have to educate yourself on the subject at hand, if you are to lazy to do that than accept the consequences.

Originally Posted by dubcut

If you really want to know what a cab does, Get t/s parameters and MODEL it !!! Then you see reality, not what they TELL you reality is...

If companies don't reveal technical data why would they give you the T/S parameters of the speakers? And if they did than they could also simulate their models and put the info in the data spec...

[Rick Auricchio]

The speaker makers have to give T/S specs so people can design proper cabs. Otherwise the speakers won't perform well, and that kills sales.

Bill Fitzmaurice publishes SPL charts for all his cabinets, with comparisons against "typical" mass-produced cabs. But he doesn't name names on the commercial units.

[seamonkey]

Demand the measurements. You pay enough for the gear.
Don't let the manufacturers get away with hype - make them prove it.

[billfitzmaurice]

Originally Posted by blakelock

hi all,
why isn't it common to find frequency response or sensitivity data for all these great bass cabinets?

Most manufacturers don't have response charts or accurate sensitivity data. I always offer it to the manufacturer when I do a design for one, and it's usually refused. As far as they're concerned looks is what sells cabs, not data. Sadly, they're right.

[kurotenshi]

Originally Posted by Rick Auricchio

The speaker makers have to give T/S specs so people can design proper cabs.

Let me rephrase, the CAB makers don't give the T/S values for the speakers they use and most of the time they say something like "eminence custom speakers" and so you also can't rely on the speaker maker for the data

[rpsands]

This all starts with you the bass gear buying community. Start demanding it.

I've vowed not to buy anything I haven't seen a measured chart for, cabinet-wise, fwiw

[Rick Auricchio]

re: kurotenshi: +1

I agree; what does it hurt for a cab company to tell the T/S specs of the speakers they use?

Unless---along the lines of what Bill said---giving T/S specs might blow their claim of "custom."


kurotenshi = black angel?

[Interceptor]

This is a huge point of irritation to me.

I deeply appreciate the honest designers who will publish unvarnished measurements that are done in a repeatable method. That takes real integrity. Thank you, Bill.

The MI industry does not have valid specs. Sound reinforcement does. The difference is at some point it is true engineers who do the purchasing in sound reinforcement. Engineers are cynical on their happy days, and down right ugly the rest of the time. MI buyers purchasing is driven by much different factors. Like does it look cool.

OK, I'll say it - we as bass players are treated as consumers and not engineers.

[JimmyM]

Originally Posted by BassIan

The sad part here is that most people do not prefer cabinets that even approach flat response. So, they don't know what to pursue when looking for new equipment.

why is that sad? if they get a tone they like, then it's not sad at all. and seriously, how many cabs out there truly have flat response? i can answer that one: 0. some might get closer than others, but none have dead flat response.

[JimmyM]

Originally Posted by Interceptor

This is a huge point of irritation to me.

I deeply appreciate the honest designers who will publish unvarnished measurements that are done in a repeatable method. That takes real integrity. Thank you, Bill.

The MI industry does not have valid specs. Sound reinforcement does. The difference is at some point it is true engineers who do the purchasing in sound reinforcement. Engineers are cynical on their happy days, and down right ugly the rest of the time. MI buyers purchasing is driven by much different factors. Like does it look cool.

OK, I'll say it - we as bass players are treated as consumers and not engineers.

that's because the vast majority of us are consumers and not engineers. 9 out of 10 musicians wouldn't even know what the specs meant if you gave them to them.

[kurotenshi]

Originally Posted by Rick Auricchio

kurotenshi = black angel?

According to a japanese speaking friend of mine who translated my previous internet nickname a gazilion years ago yes.

@JimmyM: You are absolutely right but that is no excuse. If the data existed the consumers who know what to do with it could use it and then this thread might have been some newbie asking us for help deciphering all those numbers and charts and in the end another person would have knowledge on the subject.

Originally Posted by Interceptor

Engineers are cynical on their happy days, and down right ugly the rest of the time.

Yes we are lol,in a good way though

[KJung]

Originally Posted by blakelock

hi all,
why isn't it common to find frequency response or sensitivity data for all these great bass cabinets? these specs are usually available for high-end home entertainment speakers and are certainly useful for musicians concerned about their tone. if nothing else, it would at least give you an idea how low in frequency a cab could go or if one cab is generally louder or quieter than another. this seems especially important for checking if smaller cabinets can handle the deep.

cheers,
blakelock

Two reasons IMO. First, these are not high end home entertainment speakers. They are meant to sound good with a bass guitar. So the whole 'flat on the scope' or whatever is pretty meaningless for the vast majority of players.

And secondly, my guess is the information would be meaningless to 90%+ of the bass cab buying market. Worse than that, it could actually put a manufacturer at a disadvantage, since frequency response information for a cabinet that looks 'better' on paper would in no way mean that a particular cab would sound better for the bass guitar. Amplifying a bass guiter to sound good in a live situation is quite different than building a stereo speaker.

[AlexanderB]

Why?
Because musicians as a group are superficial, ignorant and easily fooled. Seriously, I do not joke.
Maybe bassists less so than some other players, but still.
In which other trade could you spend decades as a pro / semi pro and still have little or no clue about how the tools around you work? (There are exceptions, I know, but as a general observation...)

The people (like me) that actually want the technical information from bass gear manufacturers will not get it since most musicians do not "want" it. I understand the specs, let me see them and make my own purchase based on data instead of "reviews" consisting of "awesome, best thing ever" or "tone totally sucks". I will of course listen and try stuff, but with the correct specs I could weed out the products before I visit the shop.

KJung said:
"Amplifying a bass guiter to sound good in a live situation is quite different than building a stereo speaker."

Maybe? Or maybe not? I would say it depends.
All bassists do not want an Ampeg 810 or B15 or an SWR 410...
If the goal is to reproduce the full signal from the amplifier with little coloration and a predictable dispersion, it would be a HiFi (as in "true to the source") speaker. That is like in my home stereo too, right?

/Alexander